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I bought it on the web. I could pinch it in between my two fingers. No support at all. I bottomed out the minute I lay down on it. Is this REALLY 4 lbs of density?
I have a simple question: As a side and stomach sleeper, what is the best mattress topper for my very firm bed? Does anyone have a simple answer? Thank you. This message was modified Dec 22, 2010 by lookingnow
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You have the classic stomach/side sleeper dilemna. Stomach needs a firmer upper layer in the mattress (with maybe a thin soft layer for comfort) to keep you from sinking in too far with the hip area and hyperextending your back (back pain) and side sleeping needs a thicker softer layer to mold to the body to prevent pressure on the bony prominences (usually hips or shoulders) and let them sink in enough to align your spine. A soft layer that is right for one position can easily be wrong for another. Memory foam is a strange animal. There is a wide variety of different feels and qualities available depending on who makes the memory foam. A denser memory foam can feel softer than a less dense memory foam or it could be the other way around depending on who makes it and the chemicals they use to "tailor" it's qualities. In general though a denser memory foam will have a "little more" ability to support than a less dense memory foam although they are all poor for support qualities and are at the bottom of the range here since they all "melt away from pressure" ... some more quickly and some more slowly. This is why all memory foam mattresses only use memory foam in the top layers and a different type of supportive foam or material underneath it. If I was in your shoes and was buying memory foam I would certainly choose denser (meaning 5.0lbs and above). Denser memory foams are also typically more durable than less dense memory foams (they will keep their qualities longer). These are all generalizations as each memory foam manufacturer makes their memory foam slightly differently and can use a wide range of chemicals to make changes to it's "performance". I would use the absolute thinnest layer that would solve the shoulder pressure issue (if 1" solved the shoulder pressure then it would be much better than 2) as the thicker you go with any memory foam the more likely you will hyperextend your back on your stomach. If the upper 2" layer of your mattress is 19 ILD latex, then this too is very soft (even though it feels firm to you) and would allow you to sink into it. Because 19ILD latex is so soft (assuming it is 19 and they didn't build it with firmer latex because of your stomach sleeping) and you are feeling like it is so firm (futon like) ... I am suspecting that you may have very firm springs even though they are pocket coils and that the firmness you are feeling is coming from the springs and not the latex (you are going through the 2" latex and laying on the springs on your side). If this is the case and given your weight then it would also indicate the need for a very thin layer on top (1"). It would be rare that someone of your height/weight would go through 3" of foam (with the exception of memory foam) although you very well could go through 2" of very soft latex on your side and feel some pressure on your shoulders from what was under it. To recap, I would choose 1" of 5lb or higher memory foam (2" would be risky) purchased from a place where I could return it if I went with memory foam at all. You would be experimenting and since in your case any memory foam may not work too well (lack of support), the ability to return it would be very important to me. Phoenix This message was modified Dec 23, 2010 by Phoenix
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Thanks, Phoenix. I will hve to return or sell the Serta 3" topper from overstock.com I think, and then will try thin, denser memory foam at a place I can return it if needed. I suppose the alternative would be another layer of latex? |
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Memory foam may feel a little softer to you (at least when it melts) but has very little ability to support the parts that need to be "held up" even if they are more dense. Denser memory foam also sinks "most of the way ... just a little more slowly. Since latex compresses and "springs back" instead of "melts" it will be more supportive (help prevent your lumbar from hyperextending on your stomach) and can also be very pressure relieving in the softer ILD's (ILD is a measure of softness). Sometimes the best solution is to use the firmest thinnest layering that works for your side sleeping position and then use a pillow under the pelvic area when you are sleeping on your stomach to take the strain off the lumbar. Stomach sleeping also needs a thinner pillow. How does your mattress with no topper feel when you are sleeping on your stomach? Phoenix |
| Lately I have been using 1" of 19ILD blended talalay over 1" of 5lb Sensus as my top 2" of comfort layers. That seems to be a pretty good combination of pressure relief without too much sinking in. I also have a 1.5" wool topper over that which reduces sinking in a bit and adds some cooling moisture absorbtion. |
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Thanks, guys. Without a topper, this well-made pocket-coil bed feels fine when I'm on my stomach, maybe even a little too firm - it's damn hard. I don't think they made mine with anything but coils and 2" of latex, even though the link I provided above shows more poly, etc. They might have changed their specs after I bought it last summer. But with this topper I bottom out on, the whole thing is a messy marshmallow both for stomach and side. I'm worried about turning from stomach to side with memory foam and not being able to get out of the impression but maybe that's only for expensive, very dense Tempurpedic. And I'm worried that Latex will compress hard like the layers of a futon mattress. Can't there be anything that isn't complicated for me throw on as a topper? |
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The link you gave didn't show any polyfoam at all, only a polyester pad over the springs (polyester is not a foam). So it seems your mattress is basically 2" latex over springs. Latex is the most durable of all the foams and there are many cases of people using latex mattresses for over 20 years with no depressions. One of the reasons so many like it is because it doesn't lose it's qualities for a very long time. They typically even last longer than an innerspring (depending on the innerspring and the type and firmness of the latex to some degree). Since the mattress seems OK on your stomach and needs more softness for the side sleeping I would still suggest .... "In very general terms though, the best for this combination would be a topper that is as thin and as firm as your hips can stand to keep your back in alignment when you are on your stomach. It would probably be wiser to use a resilient material so that you have both softness for comforming and more support on your stomach (HR polyfoam or better yet latex) however YMMV." While soft latex can be as pressure relieving as memory form ... it will hold you up better when you are on your stomach. It may be worth trying an inch first and then buying one more if this isn't quite enough Phoenix This message was modified Jan 4, 2011 by Phoenix
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| Thanks. That helps. What is HR Polyfoam? Is there another name for it so I can buy it? I wish the internet was better at giving local, in-store locations for some of this stuff so I can try it or at least feel it before purchasing and dealing with return policies. Also, what is YMMV? |
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There are basically 3 types of foam that you will find in mattresses. They each come in different qualities but I'll describe the 3 main quality levels of polyfoam and mention the other 2 more generically. 1. Memory foam. This is a kind of foam that "melts" with body heat and pressure and will form a "cradle" under you. It is a type of polyfoam that has some additional chemicals in it to make it melt and turn into a semi solid material when you lay on it. It is good for relieving pressure points but not so good at "holding you up" because of the "melting". It lets you sink into it more than other foams and this can cause problems for some people who either don't like sleeping "in" their mattress or who sink in too far and sleep out of alignment (when your spine is not aligned when you sleep it can cause back pain). Because it doesn't "hold you up", it is only used in the top few inches of a mattress so that other types of foam or innersprings under it can hold your heavier parts up and stop them from sinking in too far. In the case of stomach/side sleeping it's not so good an idea to use this because on your side you need a thicker layer to cushion your bony parts and if this layer is thick enough to help when you sleep on your side, then it would be too thick on your stomach and could allow your pelvis to sink in too far and hyperextend your back causing back pain. If you do use this at all with side/stomach sleeping it would be wise to use a very thin layer and combine it with another type of cushioning foam and not use it as the complete cushioning layer (no more than say an inch). 2. Polyfoam. This is the most common type of foam you will see in mattresses and almost all mattresses made by the major manufacturers or sold in larger outlets have either some or a lot of this in them. It will compress instead of melt under you and it is more supportive than memory foam since it will also spring back and doesn't have a memory. It comes in 3 basic grades and the lower grades don't spring back nearly as well (they are less resilient) as the higher grades. All he grades can be made in "softer" or "firmer" versions so "softness" or "firmness" is not an indicator of quality. A. Regular polyfoam. This is the lowest grade of polyfoam and weighs less than 1.8 lbs per cubic foot. It is the least expensive and is not really suitable for use in a mattress at all ... either as a soft comfort layer or as a support material ... unless the mattress is for occasional use or is meant to last a very short time. It is easier and less expensive to make it soft though so it is almost always used in the top comfort layers of mattresses (even though it shouldn't be used at all). Because a mattress needs something soft on top of the support layers ... and this is the cheapest way to do it ... you will mostly see this low grade soft polyfoam in almost all mattresses made by major companies or sold in larger stores. This is why mattresses sold today almost all have problems with depressions long before they should. When mattresses were 2 sided, at least each side had a chance to rest and didn't break down quite as fast but with one sided mattresses combined with low grade soft polyfoam ... you quickly have depressions in a mattress. They are sometimes used as a topper that can be replaced in a few months/years because they are very inexpensive (and you don't have o throw away the whole mattress this way). Because they are a lower grade and less resilient, they can also let your heavier parts sink in too much if you have too thick a layer. B. High Density polyfoam (HD). This is polyfoam that weighs 1.8 lbs per cubic foot or more. It is sometimes difficult to find this in a softer version but the firmer versions are suitable for a support layer in a mattress under memory foam or under a softer top layer of foam. It lasts longer than regular polyfoam but not as long as higher grades of polyfoam or latex foam. It is also not as resilient (doesn't hold you up as well) as the highest grade of polyfoam or latex. You will often see this grade of foam in the support (deeper) layers of a mattress and occasionaly you will find it in a soft enough version to use on the top of a mattress. C. High Resiliency polyfoam (HR). This is the highest grade and weighs 2.5 lbs per cubic foot or more. Because it is make with a different combination of chemicals than the other two grades, it can be made from very soft to very firm so it can be used anywhere in a mattress. It is more expensive than the lower grades though so you rarely see soft HR foam in the top parts of a mattress except in mattresses made by smaller companies like Gardiner (the major manufacturers use mostly the regular grade polyfoam when they use soft foam to save money). The best of these come close to latex and are very good quality, have good resilience, and will last for many years. 3. Latex foam. This is made from rubber (either natural rubber, synthetic rubber, or a blend) and is the highest quality of all. Blended latex and natural rubber latex are better than 100% synthetic latex which can break down more quickly and doesn't have the same desireable qualities of durability and resilience. It will last for many years (over 20 is not uncommon) without breaking down or forming depressions and can be made from very soft to very firm. In the softer versions it is as good as memory foam at relieving pressure but because it doesn't melt and "pushes back", it does a much better job of holding your heavier parts up. The deeper you sink in the more it "pushes back" so you are more "on" the mattress with latex than you are "in" the mattress with memory foam. It is more expensive than other foams but because of it's high quality, resilience, and durability and also because it can both relieve pressure and help support you ... it is better value than other foams in the long term. So those are your foam choices to put on top of your mattress. Latex in softer versions is widely available as a topper. A few sources where you can buy it are here http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/latex-toppers/16314-0-1.html. HR poly in a softer version is a little harder to find but some local foam shops will often carry them. Some of these though will sell you regular or HD polyfoam and try to tell you it is HR so it is important to get the "specs" of what you are buying. For something that's in almost every mattress in every store ... it's amazing that there are so few good sources to buy it in the quality and firmness that is needed for those who are attracted to it's lower cost. A few places you can buy polyfoam are... http://www.foamforyou.com/Foam_Specs.htm#Open%20Cell%20Foam%20Specs They sell a range of polyfoam. Their HD23 is actually a HR foam and is available in soft. Has convoluted http://www.foam-futon.com/ Has a wide range of regular, HD and HR poly available. Also sells convoluted http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/Foam/Foam_Sheets/Foam_Extra_Soft_HR_1118/index.html Sells a range of polyfoam by the board foot. http://www.newenglandfoam.com/polyether.html Sells a wide range of polyfoam.Minimum order $150 and few prices on website. http://www.foamonline.com/mattress.php?cartID=65aaed94afab30e9fbe771f62437dcb3 Have a wide range of ILD's and density available including convoluted. Probably the best choices available. http://www.foambymail.com Mostly a range of medium and firm poly. Has convoluted http://www.foamproducts.net/html/products2.html Limited range of regular and HD poly http://www.foamorder.com/conventional.php Mostly medium and firm poly. Has convoluted To make a long story short ... because buying polyfoam can be very complicated ... you would probably be better off buying an inch or two of latex in a density around 20 ILD (the lower the ILD the softer it is). Even though it's a little more ... it will last longer and it's a more "predictable" material. YMMV means "your mileage may vary" meaning that your own experience may be different from someone else's experience or opinions. Phoenix This message was modified Jan 7, 2011 by Phoenix
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Wow. Thanks for that, Phoenix. By the way, in my previous post I wanted to ask not "where I can buy" the foam, but what it is. You covered it all very well. I envision the perfect solution to be a foam that will allow me to sleep on my side without bottoming onto my very firm mattress. I stomach sleep a lot less. I am going to read over your post again when i am less tired and make a decision. Thanks much! |
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Phoenix, when I took apart my Sealy it had a 1.5" piece of poly foam (queen size) that weighed 5lbs. I calculated a density of 1.2 lbs / cubic foot! Shows you the low quality stuff they are putting in the S brand mattresses. This message was modified Jan 6, 2011 by sandman
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