The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Nov 17, 2009 6:48 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Okay, maybe we can't be sensitive enough to feel a pea under 12 mattresses, or  however it went in "The Princess and the Pea" story... but I now believe that some of us can definitely have our mattress "ruined" by just  the wrong 1/2" layer...

As you know, I did mattress surgery on my Englander and it was immediately like 300% better than the pure foam I had been sleeping on ... and much better than the Englander as it came (with 3" of cheap foam on top of the springs).

But being that I have back and neck and shoulder issues, I was always trying different things - change a layer here and there, just to try to get it "perfect".

Well, about a month or so ago I started using my 2" wool topper. I love the feel of it and when I lay on it, the 2" shrinks down to about 1/2" under my body weight, and it felt very cozy and comfortable.

After a week or two, I started waking up with a sore back again, like when I used to sleep on pure foam (no springs). I had also changed a couple things, like zoning the middle layer to be firmer, and so on, but in the past this never caused me to wake up with pain, it would only make it a little less or more comfortable. So I kept tweaking the mattress - no major changes, just little things like adding a 1/2" of memory foam on top or under the top 3/4" latex layer, things like that.

But my back started hurting BAD about a week ago, and the only thing I could think of was that maybe I had just tweaked my back out of shape carrying some heavy things recently or doing a lot of bending or something.

I then tried making some more major changes to my mattress: I put a 1/2" layer of ultra firm HR foam on the very bottom next to the springs. ... Then when that didn't work, I tried changing the HR 1" layer above that to Very Firm... No matter what I did, my back kept hurting... and it seemed that all the changes made it WORSE, not better.

Then finally, 2 nights ago, I said, "Well, I'm going to put it all back EXACTLY the way it was when it last worked for me.
I did that, and it was better, but it STILL hurt my back somewhat.

It was then that I said, "Wait! COULD IT BE that the 2" (1/2" really) wool topper is what caused all this??"

I took it off.

Slept.

Now I woke up this morning with no back pain, and I am pretty sure that the whole problem with my mattress began shortly after I started using the wool topper, and that taking it off is what has made the difference!

In support of the truth of this ultra-sensitivity is that in the past I also noticed that the CuddleBed - which is only about 1/2" thick when you lay on it, also seemed to throw off the comfort of my mattress and so I quit using that. I was skeptical at the time and thought maybe it was just my imagination and that's why I did try the wool topper as well, knowing full well that it also was about 1/2" of non-supportive material. It's still hard for me to believe that 1/2" of anything could cause me to wake up with a very sore back, but it sure seems like this is the case. Which is why I am posting this for others to consider, who may also have high sensitivity to the support or non-support of their mattress! When tweaking make SMALL changes, not big ones! And even if it feels okay at first, after a week or two it may start to bother you. The thing to look at first is the latest change you've made! It's most likely the culprit. I have found, for example, that memory foam may feel fine for a week or two, and then break down and cause back pain.

So I am back to my original configuration:
from the top, down:
3/4" latex (maybe 20-24ILD)
1" Venus foam
1" zoned HR foam (medium at shoulders, Firm in the mid-section  feet/legs section doesn't matter)
Englander Springs

DISCLAIMER: This all could be coincidence. Maybe my back got bent out of shape and it just so happened that it self-healed about the same time that I took the wool topper off. But I doubt that...
Also: This whole ultra-sensitivity thing is probably not something most people have. I think when one has chronic pain when laying in bed, one tends to focus on what is causing the discomfort and that can lead to one being more sensitive to changes in one's mattress. My guess is that some of us here have come to be ultra-sensitive to our mattress due to chronic pain from an injury or disease.)
This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #1 Nov 17, 2009 8:14 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
Jim, you almost certainly are more sensitive to small variations than most people, due to your previous injuries. That is probably why you became one of the top mattress surgeons in the country!

The wool will compress more where you have the most weight, so it will change you alignment a little bit. I tried a snugfleece (the washable one since they did not have the others in stock) and ended up returning it. It felt a little scrunchy when I put it right under the sheet (as they recommend) and it did not seem to keep me any cooler. I put it under the mattress cover, and it is softened things up a bit, but I decided I would rather do that with latex/memory foam if necessary.

I am curious, did you notice any change in temperature when you took it off?? Cooler, warmer or no major change?
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #2 Nov 17, 2009 9:58 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Hi Jim: Well Pardoner, no one, and I mean no one, can ever accuse you of not trying your very level best to find a surface that will really keep you comfortable.

But I think you're onto something about this minutia of layer differentials causing problems. There is an excellent post by latency machine regarding his experiments with his foundation. I really believe that there is a lot to this. This is a subject( foundations) that gets very little attention on this forum. We all know that for years the major mattress manufactures required us to purchase new foundations or their guarantee would not be in effect for their mattress. Most people, myself included, have always felt like this was just so much hokum in an effort to extract more money from us. And to some extent that's probably true.

But you read this post by latency machine,

found here,   http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/fbm-foam-latex-1-year-update/6943-0-1.html  and see what you think.

I think that he is on to something!

PS: Thank you for your support in that other thread. I would have sent you an email but I lost your address due to a computer crash sometime ago.
This message was modified Nov 17, 2009 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #3 Nov 19, 2009 5:29 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
It's weird... Like I said, I changed the mattress back, took off the wool topper and then I slept good again...
BUT the very next night my back hurt again - not AS bad as before, but I did wake up sore.

So maybe it IS just coincidence and it has more to do with my back itself changing from time to time, than the mattress. I still Do think that half an inch of whatever can make a big difference, though. But maybe not AS much difference as I indicated in my first post above.

So last night, i went back to sleeping better, but still not as good as the first night after I changed the mattress back. So this would indicate that at least part of the equation is my back itself and what I do or don't do during the day to make it get "bent out of shape".

One thing I remembered was that in the past - I did not keep notes so can't say for sure how much this may or may not coincide with my mattress problems/solutions - I was doing an exercise before bed where I use these stretchy cables attached to the top 2 corners of a doorway, which I use to hold on to and bend my back backwards as far as I can, bending it back into a curve while the cables hold me from falling backwards.

I began doing this exercise again the day I changed my mattress back, so it may have just as much to do with the exercise or how I do it, as the mattress, and it could be a coincidence that I also quit doing these exercises around the time I added the wool topper because I was feeling good with my mattress at that time and so felt no need to do the exercises.

So all of this is very confusing and the only way I can sort through it is to take notes from now on and once I am getting a good night's sleep again without waking up with back pain, then I can keep doing the exercise and then switch back to the wool topper and see if it does have a negative impact. At least for now I am going to leave my mattress alone and work on finding the right exercise routine that may make the difference. (Before I was just doing 2-3 minutes of these stretches before bed.)

One thing I can say, though, is that there is NO doubt that switching to springs did help my situation. Once I got away from pure foam I noticed a very major difference in my ability to sleep better and wake up with less or no pain. The recent pain I suffered was not AS bad as before when I had pure foam and no springs. Again, I'm not saying springs are always better for everyone, just that if you are finding that foam does not work, you may want to try springs with good foam.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #4 Nov 19, 2009 5:33 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
sandman wrote:
Jim, you almost certainly are more sensitive to small variations than most people, due to your previous injuries. That is probably why you became one of the top mattress surgeons in the country!

The wool will compress more where you have the most weight, so it will change you alignment a little bit. I tried a snugfleece (the washable one since they did not have the others in stock) and ended up returning it. It felt a little scrunchy when I put it right under the sheet (as they recommend) and it did not seem to keep me any cooler. I put it under the mattress cover, and it is softened things up a bit, but I decided I would rather do that with latex/memory foam if necessary.

I am curious, did you notice any change in temperature when you took it off?? Cooler, warmer or no major change?

No, I did not notice any temperature difference. But then I have never felt my bed slept too hot, regardless of foams used. The only thing I cannot stand is synthetic blankets or sheets. I have to use 100% cotton or wool and anything else will cause me to sweat. Other than that, the foam itself has never caused me any noticeable problem. That is, it MAY increase the heat, but if so I have not made that connection or saw it as a problem. I mostly used the wool topper for the nice feel of it. It does feel very nice to crawl into a bed with a nice 2" wool topper! If later I can figure out how to incorporate it into my mattress, I will. But for now I'm keeping things the same as they were when my mattress felt  "Right" and work on loosening up or straightening up my back.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #5 Nov 19, 2009 5:36 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
eagle2 wrote:
Hi Jim: Well Pardoner, no one, and I mean no one, can ever accuse you of not trying your very level best to find a surface that will really keep you comfortable.

But I think you're onto something about this minutia of layer differentials causing problems. There is an excellent post by latency machine regarding his experiments with his foundation. I really believe that there is a lot to this. This is a subject( foundations) that gets very little attention on this forum. We all know that for years the major mattress manufactures required us to purchase new foundations or their guarantee would not be in effect for their mattress. Most people, myself included, have always felt like this was just so much hokum in an effort to extract more money from us. And to some extent that's probably true.

But you read this post by latency machine,

found here,   http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/fbm-foam-latex-1-year-update/6943-0-1.html  and see what you think.

I think that he is on to something!

PS: Thank you for your support in that other thread. I would have sent you an email but I lost your address due to a computer crash sometime ago.

Eagle2 (I guess there must have been an eagle1!?) , I will read that when I have time, later today or tomorrow. Thanks for the link.
Your welcome for the support. Funny how people jump to conspiratorial theories on a mattress forum! But it's all good.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #6 Nov 19, 2009 7:06 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Jim said: "Eagle2 (I guess there must have been an eagle1!?) , I will read that when I have time, later today or tomorrow. Thanks for the link.
Your welcome for the support. Funny how people jump to conspiratorial theories on a mattress forum! But it's all good."

Well Jim, you're right! There was an eagle1. And that's how I became eagle2. It goes back to the old CB radio days when I was a traveling factory representative for a container manufacture and ran a CB radio in my car all the time. I had to pick a CB "handle" and I chose eagle1. However another fellow in the same area already had that name so I took off the 1 and put on a 2. I have been using this name on the Internet ever since I began posting some 10 years ago.

Yes it's too bad that some folks just can't stand to hear other folks tell about how pleased and contented they are. It seems we humans much prefer to hear about problems. Quite frankly, as I have grown older, that's not true for me anymore. I get enough of problems reading the daily news and watching television. You begin to wish for some good news. Our news media knowing that most humans tend to prefer bad news will do everything they can to run away from a good news story, unless it has a lot of so-called human interest attached to it.

I couldn't help but believe that our "accusatory friend" was either suffering from "buyers remorse" and wished that he had purchased a FlowBeds, or was actually associated in some way with a competitor of FlowBeds. Or maybe, he was just having a bad day. Let's assume the latter rather than the former.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #7 Nov 23, 2009 1:11 AM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
Yeah, Jim, I've also been called Princess and the Pea, but I do feel that I'd notice a pea under my mattress, LOL! 
Small, minute changes do make a difference.  I was thinking about mentioning stretching prior to sleeping, but I read then that you'd done that.  Could be one thing making a difference.
Kait
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #8 Nov 23, 2009 5:45 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
I do believe that there are many things that impinge upon us through the day that caused us to sleep differently each night.

We all know from doing the research and experimenting with our own mattresses, that mattresses do make a tremendous difference. But at the same time our bodies and what they are going through does make a significant difference.

I know some nights when I go to bed, the bed actually feels wonderful. There are other nights when it is not that great, and it takes a while for me to adjust and get comfortable. This is the reason that I like having two different firmness levels in my California King bed. It just makes good sense to me that we can't always be exactly the way we would like to be, when it's time to go to bed. Thus, the different firmness layers are beneficial.
This message was modified Nov 23, 2009 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #9 Nov 24, 2009 4:39 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Kait and Eagle2, thanks for the feedback.
I also very much agree that it is not JUST the mattress, it is also our backs and what we have done during the day, or days before...
After posting this thread, I began to think it was indeed NOT the added wool topper or change in my mattress that suddenly caused me to have a sore back in the morning and during the night, but rather a change in my back that made the difference. I very much thought it was the mattress when I started this thread but now I'm not so sure.

I do, however, think that a 1/2 inch layer CAN make a difference. But it may not have been the crucial factor in my current situation.

It was very odd because my mattress had SOLVED just the type of back pain I was having when I made this post. That is, I had this type of back pain when I first did my Englander surgery, then it went away. I definitely know for sure that this was not just coincidence, that having springs and quality foam in my mattress is what made a big difference in my getting a good night's sleep.

But then all of the sudden I had back pain again. I had made some minor changes to the mattress so I thought that was the problem. But now I think the problem stemmed from the fact that I did some heavy lifting and screwed up my back. I didn't KNOW I had screwed up my back but in retrospect, now I think I did.

So now I am back to my original mattress configuration - the one that originally worked for me and solved my back problem - and I still have had back pain when sleeping lately. However, as of the past 2 nights, it is better again. So obviously - since I have not changed the mattress for the past 5-6 days or so (and all I did then was replace the middle section with a less firm piece) -it is my back that has changed, not the mattress, and I am suddenly waking up with less pain again. Today I woke up with almost no back pain and that was after sleeping 10 hours last night! (I took a sleeping aid before bed.) Usually if I slept even 8 hours, with or without a sleeping aid,  I was waking up with pain, so sleeping 10 and not waking up with pain is pretty amazing for me. (I find that with a sleep aid I sometimes SLEEP better, but I often wake up with more back pain due to sleeping a longer time.)

Bottom line: Kait is right - it's both the state of the back AND the mattress that affect us!

Update:
One thing I did for the past 2 nights which is a tip I picked up from a chiropractor years ago, but I had not done it for ages, is to lay down on my mattress and let my head hang over the edge for about 5 min. I did this the past 2 nights and it seemed to help.

What sucks about ALL THIS STUFF is that there really is no way of knowing what works, and what is just coincidence, sometimes. Is it the neck stretching that helped, or the mattress, or just coincidence? I really don't know. All I can do is keep doing what seems to work and hope it keeps working!
This message was modified Nov 24, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #10 Nov 24, 2009 5:26 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Jim: You know I respect your genuine efforts to find a comfortable sleeping surface even going to the extreme extent of performing mattress surgery many times in your pursuit of the best sleeping surface.

A lot of people do not have the courage, the time, nor the inclination to attempt this type of approach. Therefore they must look to manufactured mattresses to try to find the perfect nights sleep.

As has been discussed ad infinitum, the big S brands do not facilitate this search. Instead they seem to prey upon the situation with their "naming conventions" and lack of any real information about what goes into their mattresses. This is tragic actually, because they should be the people with the most knowledge and ability to produce the best mattress. But I'm afraid that a long time ago, greed took over this important manufacturing process.

Thank God for boards like this one that allow individuals to do their own independent research and report on that research. Thank God for small independent companies that operate off of the Internet and allow the individual to know exactly what's going into their mattress and configure it for themselves. Whether that be companies that produce the whole mattress, or companies that offer various types of foam and let the individual do his/her own thing.

In any event, had it not been for "what's the best mattress.com" and the many folks who are willing to share their experiences, their frustrations, their successes, and their failures, I would've probably wound up purchasing a Stearns and Foster ready-made mattress without ever truly knowing what was inside the pretty cover.

So... thanks to one and all!
This message was modified Nov 24, 2009 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #11 Nov 25, 2009 2:37 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Right, Eagle2. I am pretty sure I joined this forum originally in 2001 but somehow they lost my membership and it says I joined in 2008 and even if I go back to the old forum it says there I joined in 2004 but I know that is not true, either, because I have posts there that are way after I had bought a flobed and experimented with foam. So as near as I can tell I joined in 2001. Which is neither here nor there, but I just researched it yesterday so it just occured to me to point out that I came here for the first time a LONG time ago! My point is that I have learned a LOT over the years, here!

Even back in 2001 or so, there were plenty of Do It Yourselfers on here. And it was my first ever exposure to latex as a mattress material. I thought "What?! Sleeping on rubber?!"   I went through several S-brand mattresses in my search, tried latex, tried memory foam, tried HR foam, M-Grade foam, and finally settled on mattress surgery as the best way to make my bed MY way...

This forum has led me through many experiences with DIY mattresses, none of which I'd have known about had I not discovered this forum. I don't know who pays for this forum but I want to thank them right here - since Thanksgiving is tomorrow - and say:
 "Good for you, for providing such a great public service where all these people can come and learn about mattresses and all things "sleep", and with no censorship regarding our opinions of various mattresses!
"

I consider myself still a learner, still an experimenter, still learning and trying things, and still looking for answers to help me with my own personal sleep issues (bad back, bad neck, bad shoulder...!)

I hope this forum stays around forever, so more and more people can learn the truth about mattresses, and get some ideas of how they can build their own mattresses, or buy from companies that offer great sleep trials and full disclosure of the materials inside their mattresses!
This message was modified Nov 25, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #12 Nov 25, 2009 6:26 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
JIm:  I was watching television the other day and they came on with an add for one of those flip type lay down stretching devices. And I thought of you.

You might want to look into something like that. The concept is pretty simple. You lay down on this platform like device that is attached to a frame and tilt yourself upside down. Your feet are secured to the bottom of the platform. Gravity does the rest.

With my bad back I have thought of something like this many times before. But I have never ventured forth and spent my money.

You might want to look into it.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #13 Nov 27, 2009 2:51 PM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
Hi Jim,

I agree about the Cuddlebed, I tried over and over again to use it, and it caused me more pain than helping.

I still too have hip pain after 3 hours sleeping or more and it wakes me.  I sleep fine on the back though.  I am thinking about changing my layers too, but like you when I do it ends up worse than what I have now.  I Have 1" memory foam (cheap stuff), 1" 14 ILD latex, 1 3/4" 24 ILD talalay latex, and 1 3/4" firm Dunlop.  I know that sounds like a lot, but it all compresses (mostly) over springs.  So I am thinking of adding another soft layer of latex.  I use a polyester blanket as a mattress pad, and actually it has worked out fine. It is no worse than a mattress pad, in fact it is better.   Also jersey sheets are over that.  It stretches and it helps my shoulder tremendously.

I agree with you about finding the perfect comfort level.  I too keep notes, and it even gets confusing trying to understand how I had it setup before.  Oh yeah, I have firm Dunlop under my lower legs, instead of the 24 ILD, since I didn't have enough for that layer.  It is fine and I don't notice any difference.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #14 Nov 27, 2009 11:55 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I have the same problem with foam and latex.   I've gone through 3 memory and 2 latex pads before I realized I was buying an inferior product.  Bed companies have it good.  They sell mattresses that look exactly the same and they can throw any price on it as long as they can give a good sales pitch.   And the best part for (for bed companies) is that latex and foam feel the most comfortable when you initially lay down and just so happens is dirt cheap.   Its impossible to get 100% latex even though they claim it to be.   Its artifial and cheap to make.  Its human nature to care more about yourself then the guy beside you so thats why mattresses companies are as bad as car salesmen.  True happiness is when you can leave this world without a single possession and be happy because your closest friends have a fulfilling life (loving family, kids, house).   Infact your a lucky person if you live your intire life and find someone who you can truely call a friend.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #15 Nov 28, 2009 12:53 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
Sleep country is an exellent example of the mattress industry.  There a household name and they offer an exchange if your not happy. they'll even beat any price by 5% and they carry name brands and to top it all off they'll great you with a smile.   In reality they carry mattresses that cost maybe 150 bucks to make ( or less).  There already expecting to be unhappy with them and say   "the mattress i bought from you hurts my hips and back I want an exchange",  they'll give you the exchange because  they've already  factored that into there mattress price so they can still make a huge profit (compared to doing things the honest way).  They give every mattress there own name ex. ( Simmons ------> (beautysleep)   <-------- ).   The benefit for sleepcountry is that if you find an awsome mattress for a great deal at a different mattress store they'll beat that deal by matching you up with there shitty "equivilant model"   which will feel nice at first because of the nasa approved  memory or latex  foam and hurt your back later on.   By the way in rank from worst to better (but still bad ) i'd rate the companies in this order:   Serta's  then simmons then sealy/sterns and foster (Donald trump's mattress line, he just wants your money).   In stuffing quality memory foam is wost followed by latex then (coton and wool) which is in every mattress because of its flame retardent properties high aswell as low quality,  followed by (hogs hair and mohair) and the best I belive would be horse hair but don't quote me on it.   Its funny too because if you were to put these materials in order of price it would be exactly the same.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #16 Nov 28, 2009 12:55 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
#2   Today 8:55 pm
I have the same problem with foam and latex.   I've gone through 3 memory and 2 latex pads before I realized I was buying an inferior product.  Bed companies have it good.  They sell mattresses that look exactly the same and they can throw any price on it as long as they can give a good sales pitch.   And the best part for (for bed companies) is that latex and foam feel the most comfortable when you initially lay down and just so happens is dirt cheap.   Its impossible to get 100% latex even though they claim it to be.   Its artifial and cheap to make.  Its human nature to care more about yourself then the guy beside you so thats why mattresses companies are as bad as car salesmen.  True happiness is when you can leave this world without a single possession and be happy because your closest friends have a fulfilling life (loving family, kids, house).   Infact your a lucky person if you live your intire life and find someone who you can truely call a friend.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #17 Nov 28, 2009 1:00 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
sorry about the extra messages I guess I did not  refresh my screen and thought that my post did not work
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #18 Nov 28, 2009 2:15 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I'm about to talk about some of the highest quality brands i've found. 
Pros:  Hastens seems to have excellent stuffing some of the best I've seen.   Cons:   But I question the springs spacing and quality plus the fact that they are not honeycombed pockets so they can move around  over time That being said for all i know they may be the best.  Pros: Vi spring seems to have good springs on first impressions from there website.  I am going to lay on them in the next week   Cons:   But they seemed to have watered down there horsehair with other materials mohair,  wool... 

ex..  this is off there website 

"1,200 gsm of hand-teased loose long-stranded black horsehair, lambswool"


but they don't say how much is actually horsehair and how much is actually lambswool


and lambswool is dirtcheap compared to horsehair.   and in the vispring video you can see the springs are probably better than hastens but that the horsehair is mixed alot with other hairs so the quality is diminished.  Hastens and Vi-spring both seem find one aspect of the bed and excell and give a decent attempt in everything else.  But they both don't use any memory and latex foam so It shows they care more about your sleep then alot of other companies.    Basically all mattress companies care more there customers money then they d about there sleep so its are job as consumers to support the one mattress company who care slightly more then the rest and just hope to god it sets off a chain reation.


relyon and somnus might be also worth looking into, the ones that don't have foam and latex.  My advice is to not wast to much time on the internet because for every one person who loses 2000$ on a mattress and post his opinion theres someone else who is paid 15$ an hour to post 10 messages of garbage.   I think to find a good mattress you need to try a couple quality brands out and you might have to drive a far distant.  If you do find one thats comfortable spend MINIMUM 4 hours lying on it(seriosly).

other notable mentions are somnus, and relyon  (the ones without latex and foam).   If you buy a mattress regarless if its good or bad tell your friends and family exactly what you think of it and even let them sleep in it so they can make better judgement. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #19 Nov 28, 2009 2:19 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I woudn't recommened dux or hipnos.   But duxana is the worst of the 2.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #20 Nov 28, 2009 2:47 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
if your back is in pain all the time its nerves become more and more sensitive.   If you wake up in the morning and your back it sore and it slowly gets better throughout the day and you don't have a increased pain when  lifting things then i'd say you have a bad bed.   chiropractors are not your answer.   They will pop your back into place but that is only a temporary fix because a bad bed will always bring it back.   Also the more your pop a back into place the easier the back will pop back out of place after a night of sleep,  so its almost counter productive.  A better alternative but still poinless is A physiotherapist who might still pop your back into place but will focus on stenghening your muscles to support your bones better but in conclusion the only way to fix the pain is by fixing the source of the problem which is the bed.   You may have read this  before but don't fall for the 50% off mattress pitch,  its the oldest trick in the book.  Base a bed by how it feels after laying on it for 6 hours or better yet sleeping on it not how much its discounted.   Also ask if you can sleep on the mattress overnight in the store and work around there schedual to make it happen even pay them 50-250$ if thats what it takes.   It may sound a little cheap to the salesman that you take such a precaution in spending your money but just remember the reason this is happening is because mattress companies lost consumer trust by penny pinching on the fabrication of their mattresses.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #21 Nov 28, 2009 3:28 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I'm well aware of my spelling.   And you may think your fussy because you neighbor can sleep on foam and latex.   Well my advice to that is that there are people who can sleep on anything and there are alot people who can't.    I've never met anyone who've had a horsehair mattress and traded it in for a foam or latex mattress and got a restful night sleep.  A good mattress consist of good stuffings and springs.  
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #22 Nov 28, 2009 3:31 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
good springs
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #23 Nov 28, 2009 3:50 AM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
eagle2 wrote:
JIm:  I was watching television the other day and they came on with an add for one of those flip type lay down stretching devices. And I thought of you.

You might want to look into something like that. The concept is pretty simple. You lay down on this platform like device that is attached to a frame and tilt yourself upside down. Your feet are secured to the bottom of the platform. Gravity does the rest.

With my bad back I have thought of something like this many times before. But I have never ventured forth and spent my money.

You might want to look into it.

Thanks eagle2. But I've "been there, done that". It didn't help. I think it may help some people but I used one for about 2 months and it didn't help me.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #24 Nov 29, 2009 1:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2, 2009
Points: 26
Yep it's definitely true, I went through a couple combos with my foam only bed until I found the sweet spot. I had a 1 inch of soft tal latex on top with a cuddlebed which was hurting my back. First, I took off the cuddlebed and it was a little better but still pain. Next, I put the 1 inch soft in the middle and 4 inches of medium (32ILD) on top and voila. I've been sleeping great for months. 1/2 to 1 inch can really make a difference, it's true.
This message was modified Nov 29, 2009 by Vaphils
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #25 Nov 29, 2009 2:50 PM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
To dodo;
I have no idea why horsehair would be a good idea in a bed...just because it used to be plentiful and cheap doesn't mean it is a better padding.  Horse hair is used in old saddle pads, too, but it packs hard over time.
I think that cotton batting is good, tho.  It is super soft and has a wonderful feel.
Kait
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #26 Nov 30, 2009 2:14 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Vaphils wrote:
Yep it's definitely true, I went through a couple combos with my foam only bed until I found the sweet spot. I had a 1 inch of soft tal latex on top with a cuddlebed which was hurting my back. First, I took off the cuddlebed and it was a little better but still pain. Next, I put the 1 inch soft in the middle and 4 inches of medium (32ILD) on top and voila. I've been sleeping great for months. 1/2 to 1 inch can really make a difference, it's true.

Thanks Vaphils, it helps to know I'm not the only one who notices small differences in my mattress in a big way.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #27 Dec 1, 2009 3:14 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
All I can say to anyone who has bad sleep is that any material is better than latex and memory foam.  animal hair has been used for 1000's of years and I will not say anything I do not strongly belive to be true.   I do not know which is the best type of animal hair is the best.    Probably animal hair and plant fibre (coton) in combination are are the best combination for a mattress.  I think animal hair would be more supportive and provider better cushioning  between you and your mattress springs, and the coton could very well be the softess matterial to sleep on sleep on.  As far as Plants fibre vs animal fir I do not know truely which one would be better so I do will not partake in that argument.  l but There used to be a lot more horses in the past and now it is more expensive to buy a animal hair mattress but it was never cheap compared to other beds.   Foam was and always is the cheapest to produce and before foam a straw bed (horse food)would be the cheapest.   There is a far more labor intensive process in properly raising healthy horses with think healthy mane, properly tying, washing,wrapping and squeeze drying there hair to assure it is complely sanitary,  and spreading apart the twisted dried hair hair for it to be considered cheap.  But I do admit labor and horses were cheaper in the past but that is irrelevant.  It does compact and must be refluft every couple of weeks to uptane its springyness and will last much longer than foam.  Anyone who has problems with a foam mattress and lost days of sleep would have tears of joy coming down there face if fluffing there mattres topper was the answer to there problem.  It is easy to sell a foam mattress because It is the most comfortable for the first 5-15 minutes, its cheap to produce,  it can be drastically lighter than other matterials,  theres is no maintanance and no turning but in my opinion its like giving gatorade to plants because If it dosn't do its job well then it dosn't do its job. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #28 Dec 1, 2009 3:16 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
And people Who ride horses all day long don't use memory foam
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #29 Dec 1, 2009 3:49 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
(I corrected some of the spelling)  
All I can say to anyone who has bad sleep is that any material is better than latex and memory foam.  Animal hair has been used for 1000's of years.   I do not know which is the best type of animal hair.   Animal hair and plant fiber (cotton) in combination are probably  best.  Animal hair would be more supportive and provider better cushioning  between you and your mattress springs, and the cotton could very well be the softest material to sleep on.  As far as Plants fiber/spring mattress vs animal fir /spring mattress I do not truly know which would be better so I will not  partake in that argument.  There used to be a lot more horses in the past so obviously its more expensive to buy animal hair mattress's but it was never a cheap bed to make.  Foam was and always is the cheapest to produce and before foam a straw bed (horse food)would be the cheapest.   There is a far more labor intensive process in properly raising healthy horses with many thick healthy manes, properly tying the hair, washing,wrapping and squeeze drying the hair to assure it is completely sanitary,  spreading apart the twisted dried hair.  Labor and horses were cheaper in the past but that is irrelevant.  It does compact and must be refluft every couple of weeks to obtain its springiness and will last much longer than foam.  Anyone who has problems with a foam mattress and lost days of sleep would have tears of joy coming down there face if fluffing there mattress topper was the answer to there problem.  It is easy to sell a foam mattress because It is the most comfortable for the first 5-15 minutes, its cheap to produce,  it can be drastically lighter than other material,  there is no maintenance and no turning in a foam or latex mattress but in my opinion its like giving gatorade to plants because If it does not do its job well then it does not do its job.   I will not say anything I don't belive to be true
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #30 Dec 1, 2009 4:13 AM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I've lived my entire life without once seeing a person with a black hart change to be good.  Once a company purposely misleads you in the quality of there product never trust them again.    That rule holds true for all the fast food companies who claim they now care about your health.  all the mattress stores who sold you crap fillings.  all the the car companies who sold you lemons.   When a company sells you a great product never forget them and always spread there name to people who you want to prosper.


my ben-hur deep freezer is probably 70 years old and had no problems.
the running room sells great running shoes (a little pricey)  I like their "new  balance" shoes
I think capers whole food market has an excellent produce department  (also pricey)
I've heard nothing but good things about the toyota prius

trust should be regarded as highly as knowledge
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #31 Dec 1, 2009 6:42 AM
Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Points: 93
dodo2 wrote:
Sleep country is an exellent example of the mattress industry.  There a household name and they offer an exchange if your not happy. they'll even beat any price by 5% and they carry name brands and to top it all off they'll great you with a smile.   In reality they carry mattresses that cost maybe 150 bucks to make ( or less).  There already expecting to be unhappy with them and say   "the mattress i bought from you hurts my hips and back I want an exchange",  they'll give you the exchange because  they've already  factored that into there mattress price so they can still make a huge profit (compared to doing things the honest way).  They give every mattress there own name ex. ( Simmons ------> (beautysleep)   <-------- ).   The benefit for sleepcountry is that if you find an awsome mattress for a great deal at a different mattress store they'll beat that deal by matching you up with there shitty "equivilant model"   which will feel nice at first because of the nasa approved  memory or latex  foam and hurt your back later on.   By the way in rank from worst to better (but still bad ) i'd rate the companies in this order:   Serta's  then simmons then sealy/sterns and foster (Donald trump's mattress line, he just wants your money).   In stuffing quality memory foam is wost followed by latex then (coton and wool) which is in every mattress because of its flame retardent properties high aswell as low quality,  followed by (hogs hair and mohair) and the best I belive would be horse hair but don't quote me on it.   Its funny too because if you were to put these materials in order of price it would be exactly the same.


dodo2, for how much stuff you're i.m.o. unfairly throwing out here (e.g. i do beleive many posters here ARE real people who have found good sleep on foam blocks, if some for just short stretches at a time)- i cannot deny i strongly suspect a ridiculous markup especially in latex/M.F. lines.  You're right- all the instant price matching, when you call to cxl an order or even ask questions or have doubts, and they immediately offer to drop the price by significant %'s to keep your order, that alone makes you nervous/skeptical, granted.  And yes re: the returns- one company in particular doesn't even recieve the mattress back when they refund you!  You just prove that you donated it to the Salvation Army & they refund all but $75 (i guess for their shipping to you).  So obviously all that loss has to be covered somewhere, and the profit margins are likely HUGE if they can instantly deduct from the price like that. That is a burn, but at the very least, it's no LESS deceitful than sealy/serta/s&f's different names of identical product, & not even telling us what ratings THEIR OWN foams are (don't forget conventional mattresses have foam in them too)!

but at the end of the day, i'm worried MUCH less about how much money they are making off me over their production costs, & trying to just stay focused purely on if it's worth the money for a good night's sleep- LONG TERM (i can find conventional mattresses that work for me for a few years, my idea is finding solid latex that will hold up for a decade or mre).  but if it works it works, if that's their business model- hey you'd want to get as much money as you could for your product too- that's capitalism.  so as convenient as it is that raw foam blocks just happen to mirror the price structure of conventional mattresses- i just don't care.  if i'm going to spend a thousand+ on innerspring mattresses, i don't have a problem spending it on latex & not worrying about how much went to profit & how much went to cover returns etc.

but it's looking like the best of both worlds are what these mattress surgeons have going on.  You get the support of traditional spring mattresses, but  specify the exact comfort layers between you & the springs, since that is what gives first on them anyway, and they will last longer hopefully.  or can replace yourself again.  the ideal solution i've decided so far is to find the highest guage, best tempered coils, before you start paying for more expensive embroidering & comfort layers. 

so what do YOU sleep on b.t.w? horse hair?  I won't knock it until i try it, but realistically, i don't ever see myself going there.  i like to try before i buy, which is my problem with alot of the latex in the first place.

Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #32 Dec 14, 2009 2:42 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I agree many of the people on this is site are real people who have no intentions of misleading.  Maybe I didn't explain in detail how I feel.  I hope companies who make better quality products make money and stay in business.   They provide a valuable service.  I believe the price of a good night sleep is worth a lot just like you do.  It is shocking on how much these luxury mattress can cost but If these are the only mattresses that helps you sleep then get on your knees and thank the cosmos.  The one thing I hate is companies that give false claims and mislead.   Just like wendy's song saying "you know when its real"  where you might speculate they are using only real ingredients and not shit loads preservatives and taste enhancing god knows what.  I believe the foam and latex companies are guilty of misleading.  You say your mattress lasted 2 years I think thats disgusting and I also speculate how much of your  ruined sleep was from foam breaking down and how much of your ruined sleep was the accumulative muscle/bone pain of sleeping on a foam mattress for 2 years.  I was like you and belived the answer in sleep was latex.  My friend my advice is to save your money and not take that path.  Now as for the Comfort You cannot sleep on a bed of springs alone, It would be like sleeping on small rocks. thats why I beleive the inside stuffing of a mattress is just as important as its springs.   If you grabbed a clump natural hair or fiber and squeezed it with your hands into the smallest ball you could the horse hair would compress less then all the other natural fibers (I am unaware of a fiber/hair that is better).  That's because each hair is sapposably like a spring and so they give the most support for those rocky springs.  Now horsehair  clumps up over time Its moreso the springy hairs getting so tangled that they can't bounce back to there original shape because they never lose there springyness.  But fluffing it like a pillow every so often solves that problem and untangles the springs.  I've been told humane hair is vertually indestructible from nature and many chemicals I guess most hairs are like that (look it up online).     I also beleive pocket coils are better then conventional springs.   Oh ya I think it might be worth checking out lavital mattresses aswell.  They have everything I like to see in a mattress except for the horsehair not being hand teased and being produced more like a blanket (I don't know how much of a difference that really makes) and they seem very reasonably priced compared to other matterss of similar fillings.  i've never laid on one, if you can find one in your area (please post what you think of them in this chat room),  I find laying on mattresses with vertically longer springs that are also wider in diameter feel way more comfortable then the smaller springs.   Also I just tried out vi spring and It gives support no doubt and its a lot cheaper then hastens but I wasn't as impressed as I thought I'd be.   The smaller diameter springs arn't that comfortable and I could feel them in my ribs especially when i rolled around.  it really does seem like vispring only sprinkles their mattress with horse hair and load it with the cheaper fibers as they had on display a vispring cut out of their mattress.

also when you said
"the ideal solution i've decided so far is to find the highest guage, best tempered coils, before you start paying for more expensive embroidering & comfort layers"

Kudoos to you for buying looking at the inner constructions of a mattress but I belive it is still easy for mattress companies to mislead.  They will willingly tell you the gauge number and the number of springs and maybe even the if coils are tempered.  But you will never truely know the quality of the steel.  Alot are spring cheaply mixed recycled metals.   You might even get melted down pennies for springs j/k.  So brand name is something you have to somewhat rely on.  But I do not recommend sealy serta simmons, stern and foster, spring air, duxianna, (and the list goes on). 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #33 Dec 14, 2009 2:47 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
and As you requested what mattress I sleep on I just bought a horse hair mattress but I'm not going to give my opinion of it until I've slept on it for a couple weeks.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #34 Dec 15, 2009 5:09 PM
Joined: Dec 15, 2009
Points: 10
wow you got a horsehair mattress? Awesome! I heard this incredible story... a friend of mine's grandfather still sleeps on the mattress his grandfather slept on. I'm not kidding, and its all horsehair.

From what I've been reading horsehair is the end all be all of stuffing, in that its animal hair, at 230 micron. Its not just stuffed, but rolled into coils, and the coils laid down in a particular fashion. Now.. a fiber from animal hair has more loft and memory than a plant fiber, because the scales of the hair tend to lock together.

The $10000+ beds I've seen online all feature horsehair, and latex rubber cores. Sometimes coconut fibers (which were used after horsehair), and a variety of other fibers. Whatever it takes to make the $10000 pricetag seem reasonable.

Where did you get your horsehair bed? I was trying to source a place for horsehair, but its gotta be imported unless you want to pay $40 a lb... and you'd need 10-15 lbs to make a 3in layer.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #35 Dec 15, 2009 6:34 PM
Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Points: 191
One of the better know Horsehair mattresses (as well as better value) was the CH Beckley Bristol mattress-

http://www.chbeckley.com/prod_mattresses_bristol.html

On the old Mattress Forum (which I miss dearly), several of the members had that very same mattress and while it was a very well made product, it is a mattress that needed some sort of topper as most everyone said it was extremely firm .Also, while the horsehair was a great mattress surface in terms of longevity,it needed to be "fluffed" up as several poster said it would pack down.

I almost took the trip to New York to try it out along with the Lambwool mattress before I bought my current mattress.

Still would like to try it out in person...

Jeff

Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #36 Dec 15, 2009 7:08 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
JCturboT wrote:
One of the better know Horsehair mattresses (as well as better value) was the CH Beckley Bristol mattress-

http://www.chbeckley.com/prod_mattresses_bristol.html

On the old Mattress Forum (which I miss dearly), several of the members had that very same mattress and while it was a very well made product, it is a mattress that needed some sort of topper as most everyone said it was extremely firm .Also, while the horsehair was a great mattress surface in terms of longevity,it needed to be "fluffed" up as several poster said it would pack down.

I almost took the trip to New York to try it out along with the Lambwool mattress before I bought my current mattress.

Still would like to try it out in person...

Jeff


Thanks for the link JC. Very interesting company. Sometimes simpler is better....... if it's well done!

Jeff: I just concluded reading your thread in the old forum on your SleepEZ 13000 adventure. Very informative, and quite interesting. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post all the information.

My experience with my FlowBeds has been similar to your experience regarding firmness layers. I am 6' 2" and 210 pounds, so I have found that the firmer layers of latex are essential. I purchased the all natural Talalay as you did.  My experiences is listed in the thread, "Just bought a new FlowBeds."

I tried to find a forum member by a the name of "MVPinLA" who was communicating with you in that thread about his purchase of a SleepEZ 10000 bed to see how his experience worked out for him. I was not able to locate him and his thread in the new forum or in the old. Do you know how his experience worked out?
This message was modified Dec 15, 2009 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #37 Dec 16, 2009 5:47 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I am definitly not the first  to try to warn people of the mattress industry and all its inferiorness inacurateness and untruthfulness, and in all, like many before me I will probably fail .  I imagine it is routine for these snake oil mattress companies on how to deal with my messages.  But I will not back down no matter how pointless and inevitable my mission of warning is.   Eagle2 I will not vouch for your suggestions of the sleepEZ13000 and Flowbeds as for what I can see online they are latex and natural talalay latex dosn't mean much too me. Older messages from the "mattress form"   are for whatever reason gone.  They where moved or deleted (hopefully not to conceal information), but still I spectulate.  I can almost forsee a storm of scrutiney (lol).  
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #38 Dec 16, 2009 6:10 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
Grimloki as you requested I bought a hastens mattress (which is being delivered).  I will not state an opinion of them because I have not slept on the mattress for any significant duration.  Any praise I give hastens is worth less than a grain of salt unlit I sleep on it for a couple weeks.    I'll let you know, good or bad.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #39 Dec 16, 2009 6:21 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
grimloki you clearly know more on the production of horsehair then I do.  Its refreshing to hear the meticulousness and  wisdom in your posts.   Alot of companies use insignificant amounts of horsehair with cheaper stuffings so a big warning flag goes up over my head when I hear  horsehair/latex in the same mattress. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #40 Dec 16, 2009 7:40 PM
Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Points: 191
eagle2 wrote:
Thanks for the link JC. Very interesting company. Sometimes simpler is better....... if it's well done!

Jeff: I just concluded reading your thread in the old forum on your SleepEZ 13000 adventure. Very informative, and quite interesting. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post all the information.

My experience with my FlowBeds has been similar to your experience regarding firmness layers. I am 6' 2" and 210 pounds, so I have found that the firmer layers of latex are essential. I purchased the all natural Talalay as you did.  My experiences is listed in the thread, "Just bought a new FlowBeds."

I tried to find a forum member by a the name of "MVPinLA" who was communicating with you in that thread about his purchase of a SleepEZ 10000 bed to see how his experience worked out for him. I was not able to locate him and his thread in the new forum or in the old. Do you know how his experience worked out?

Don,

      Thanks for the kind words,I appreciate it.

I have read your posts about your Flobed and we both seem to agree that a firmer latex is what works for each of us. The soft (20ild) layer was useless in my book-no support what-so-ever.

I haven't heard from MVPinFLA since the old Forum posts but I hope everything worked out for him, that's one of the "issues" with a latex kit bed...just too may combinations to try out :)

Jeff

Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #41 Dec 16, 2009 11:35 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Jeff: Yes it is to bad that the soft, and I am afraid medium natural Talalay foam is to soft for folks like us. I wonder how light in weight a person would have to be before these ILD's would be firm enough?

It's too bad that quite a few people come on these forums make a few posts, get the answers they want, and then disappear into the night, without being willing to come back and share their experience with the very people that helped them.

I also agree with you Jeff, that the old forum seemed to be more active, and have more information than the new forum. It's too bad that when they changed the software they had the bug that caused people to have difficulty registering. They lost a lot of good people when they made that transfer.
This message was modified Dec 16, 2009 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #42 Jan 11, 2010 9:07 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I haven't forgot about this forum give me one more week and i'll give my opinion
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #43 Jan 12, 2010 4:27 AM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Horse hair? Yuk.
Not knocking it, really, but the idea sounds icky to me. To each his own.
What next? Horse surgery?
Cathair mattresses?

Porcupine needle box springs?

Sorry, I just never thought of animal hair mattresses.

This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by jimsocal
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #44 Jan 12, 2010 2:04 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Horsehair does not sound all that appealing to me either. But we should keep this in mind. One of the most expensive mattresses made in the world uses principally horsehair as its comfort layer over and innerspring.

They use inter-space thick layers of horsehair with thin layers of cotton and wool between the horse hair. Some of their better mattresses cost many thousands of dollars. (the last price I saw was for $4500 for the least expensive mattress with the more expensive mattresses going for tens of thousands of dollars for mattresses and box springs combo.) I believe they are a Swedish company.
This message was modified Jan 12, 2010 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #45 Jan 23, 2010 7:58 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
I Bought a top of the line t2000 Hastens mattress and even though its nice and soft I must say I'm not impress with the support from the spring.  I would not recommend it to a friend.  If my disposition changes over time i'll let you know.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #46 Jan 24, 2010 1:21 PM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
What we have to remember when investigating mattresses is before we decide if a mattress is good or not, we have to be 100 percent educated on its innards.  As for horsehair being such a cool idea for a really expensive mattress, I say bunk.  Gimmick, people.  I have horses, I have horsehair:  mane, tail, body hair, and NONE if it is all that soft.  The mane and tail is quite thick and dense and wirey.  There have been saddle pads made with horsehair matted down, but they are not soft and forgiving.  I believe that back when folks started to make beds they used what they had available  in order to make something work....like we do today!  The first ones were stuffed with straw.  Some were stuffed with horsehair simply due to its availability.  Horses shed twice a year, fall and spring.  Fall's shedding is very light....lose their fine summer coats, very insignificant.  The Spring shedding is quite significant, they drop their entire winter coat in a couple of weeks, leaving their short summer coat underneath.  There is hair everywhere...birds like it for their nests.  Anyone wants some let me know....I have three horses and plenty of hair.  But it isn't that soft.
We have nicer materials available now.  One that used to be used more recently when beds used to last and last  and is overlooked today is cotton batting.  That stuff is nice and is still found in some handmade mattresses.  That would not be a gimmick.   That would be a comfort layer that keeps its shape and stays buoyant but is not commonly used anymore.
I think the best mattress is very likely made like this:  springs of your choice, an insulator layer so the springs don't poke thru the stuff above,  several inches of cotton batting, and a layer of maybe 4" of a good quality foam(possibly in a duvet type cover so can be replaced).  That's it.  Springs are made soft by the comfort layers above, it isn't so thick that you can't get the support of the springs.  These silly commercials that show the springs poking people being the cause of a mattress being uncomfortable are just bunk.  It isn't pokey springs that hurt, it is typically the cheap P/U foam on top of them that crapped out. 
My mattress is made this way, lots of cotton batting, and it is great. 
Kait
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #47 Jan 24, 2010 2:51 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Over the course of the last six months or so that I have been investigating mattresses, and finally winding up buying a latex mattress, I have given this subject a lot of thought.

It is my opinion that if you could find the right set of springs, manufactured with the right quality and quantity of cotton and wool, and possibly some other synthetic materials, a mattress that was flippable so that you could keep redistributing the ware factor, and it was properly put together by people who really knew what they were doing, and cared about what they were doing, and not trying to just make the most money out of their project, then you would have a really great mattress.

There are a few old-time mattress manufacturers still in business that try to do this. Some of these companies like the expensive Hastings (SP) company in Sweden, (they use horsehair cotton and wool on top of three different spring tensions) that charges not only an arm and a leg, but the rest of your anatomy if they can get it, make what many people feel are the best mattresses manufactured.

But since these mattresses are usually so expensive that the average person looks elsewhere, so we have what I believe is the best compromise, (if you want to really know what's going into your mattress), the niche market companies on the Internet selling principally latex. There are other mattresses that are quite acceptable to many people, such as air beds, and waterbeds. FloBeds, who manufactured my latex mattress, has a combination of water, air, and any combination that you want. After my experience with water for 20 years which worked fine for me most of the time, I chose latex. I have not been sorry.
This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #48 Jan 24, 2010 7:55 PM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
Absolutely a well made bed with old fashioned quality is hard to find!!!  Latex is the longest lasting foam, and it is a good choice, for those who like the feel.  I already have been there done that with latex and just don't like how it sleeps, as a topper or as a mattress.  That being said, I never tried the zoning, which sounds like a good idea and not just a gimmick. I also have used water and air mattresses.  Love my spring on spring mattress with offset coils.  ONLY original issue with it was the p/u foam I chose as the top layer, silly me, but it seems to be rather good quality compared to the rest of the stuff I've slept on, and did eventually soften enough to get comfy. 
I appreciate how everyone has their own comfort issues and what works for one person does not work for another.  My stepdaughter LOVES the bed I hated(individual coils, super soft pu foam over that...gave me a backache), my other daughter loves another bed that hurt me beyond belief.  Go figure.  At least I like my current bed, and if the foam every does crap out, back to the maker to adjust or replace foam.  Nice to know your bedmaker..
Kait
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #49 Jan 24, 2010 8:15 PM
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
Points: 542
Kait: I know what you mean. My BW (Beautiful Wife) is 5' 2" and weighs 115 LB. Has a 10 year old Serta innerspring mattress with a slight pillow top configuration. She and I have faithfully turned and flipped this mattress every 30 days, since first purchased new.

It is now developing a body impression where she lays. But she is perfectly happy with it. Claims to sleep well on it. Does not want to change. So there you are!

Soooo. I keep my wallet in my pocket, and do my best to just keep my mouth shut!!
This message was modified Jan 24, 2010 by eagle2
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #50 Jan 24, 2010 11:32 PM
Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 850
Horsehair isn't meant to be super soft.  It is used in place of cotton batting because it releases moisture much more efficiently and is springier and more resilient.  Because it easily releases moisture into the environment apparently horsehair does not maintain the level of moisture required for dust mites to live in it.  The stuff that Hastens uses basically is only the hair taken from the mane and the tails, they don't use the rest of the horsehair as it is lacking the same ability to deal with with the moisture.   I can definitely understand people being weirded out by the thought of sleeping on it, but yet look at basically any good quality latex bed and they are all quilted with wool , is one of these animals dirtier than the other?  I personally really do not see horsehair as being a gimmick, is it really expensive? Heck yes.  Is it worth the cost over a really good quality adjustable latex mattress.....probably not to most people, but the mattresses are essentially highly functional works of art.   What does sound disgusting to me is the use of 'white hair' from pig and cow tails being used in some Vi-Spring and Hypnos beds, that stuff is REALLY oily and crunchy, much more so than horsehair.  Cotton batting also compresses over time, really any fibre filling will compress given enough use, its not that the fibres "break down" but they do compress.  We actually carry a hand tufted futon mattress with a 2" natural rubber core and on each side of it is nothing but organic cotton batting, but its been hand tufted all the way through to prevent shifting/clumping and to pre-compress the cotton in certain areas.  It is an incredibly firm mattress and yet where the cotton has not been tufted it will still compress with regular use and eventually the mattress will flatten out, its not that the mattress is no good at this point but some people would see the initial body indentations and probably be really surprised if we didn't warn them in advance. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #51 Jan 25, 2010 10:53 PM
Joined: Dec 31, 2009
Points: 35
Budgy (and anyone else with insights :-), I have a follow-up question to your post re: horsehair. After learning that latex wasn't compatible with my back, I decided to go back to innerspring and have been considering a horsehair mattress (a more affordable version of Hastens). From from my research, including older posts from an earlier version of this forum, I learned that Hastens and other horsehair mattresses needed to be regularly fluffed/massaged/etc. as they flatten out over time too -- yet at the same time folks say that horsehair is one of the best materials to minimize body impressions. Aren't body impressions formed precisely when mattresses flatten out under pressure so if horsehair has to be fluffed, aren't they forming body impressions (even if the body impressions can be 'fluffed' away)? Can you please resolve this seeming contradiction for me? I might just not be getting it.. Many thanks!
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #52 Jan 26, 2010 12:57 AM
Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 850
think of it as body indentations that you can indefinitely keep on 'temporarily repairing'.  However, as far as my understand this is only a feature that Hastens uses (the ability to 'massage' or re-fluff the upholstery layers). And I will also mention that basically every other brand I have seen that also uses horsehair uses it in very small amounts or it is used in conjunction with a lot of other materials without the same basic properties.  I really do believe in reality nothing holds it's shape better than latex, I have actually done quite a few service things for people in their homes (flipping cores, adjustable base maintenance, etc) and sometimes inspecting latex mattress for excessive body indentations.  With removable covers we always take them off so we know what exactly is sagging, I have NEVER seen an indentation deeper than maybe .25~.5" in a core, but the covers will always have compression (in the wool layers).  Every fibre no matter how 'resilient' will always compress as it is not a solid material.  Perhaps the best example of this that I can think of is down (not feathers).  Down regains its loft better than any other natural filling, yet the very best quality down is also the lightest and the softest available, almost every single night if you have a down pillow you would have to fluff it up if you want to have a little bit more support, but with very high quality down you can keep doing this for a VERY long time, there have been down quilts recovered from the Civil War era, and the down was reclaimed and put into new covers (after a thorough rewashing) because the plumules were basically still in very good condition. 

Now down is definitely great for a pillow, but it is not enough support to use in any large quantity in a mattress.  But basically, horsehair PREVENTING body indentations is a myth, its just that it can keep on being massaged back into shape in some beds so it is not necessarily permanent.  Apparently Hastens says that it is about a 50/50 split of their customers that regularly maintenance their toppers and the other half prefer the feel after some compression has taken place.   When we are talking about the resilience of a fibre it is usually talking about elasticity, rebound, and its resistance to the elements.   Basic polyester fibres can be folded over about 10~15 times before they literally break in half, when this happens the fibres are smaller and can 'shift' out of place a lot easier.  Wool in comparison can be folded over several hundreds of times before it will 'break',  but because wool is a scaled fibre it is more brittle than something like horsehair which is actually a filament (hollow) fibre, more comparable to silk than it is to other common animal fibres.  It's pretty much impossible to 'break' the fibres from regular use so the support and other properties of the fibres (moisture wicking and release) degrade over VERY long periods of time. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #53 Jan 26, 2010 2:58 AM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
Kait wrote:
Absolutely a well made bed with old fashioned quality is hard to find!!!  Latex is the longest lasting foam, and it is a good choice, for those who like the feel.  I already have been there done that with latex and just don't like how it sleeps, as a topper or as a mattress.  That being said, I never tried the zoning, which sounds like a good idea and not just a gimmick. I also have used water and air mattresses.  Love my spring on spring mattress with offset coils.  ONLY original issue with it was the p/u foam I chose as the top layer, silly me, but it seems to be rather good quality compared to the rest of the stuff I've slept on, and did eventually soften enough to get comfy. 
I appreciate how everyone has their own comfort issues and what works for one person does not work for another.  My stepdaughter LOVES the bed I hated(individual coils, super soft pu foam over that...gave me a backache), my other daughter loves another bed that hurt me beyond belief.  Go figure.  At least I like my current bed, and if the foam every does crap out, back to the maker to adjust or replace foam.  Nice to know your bedmaker..
Kait

Kait I agree with what you are saying about the old fashioned beds. They were made much better, say, 20 years ago. Those beds were made to last for 10-20 years for real.
But then they figured out that they could make them cheaper, still charge a lot, and people would buy more... What a great business strategy!

As to one person finding a bed really comfortable that another person hates, I think that aside from personal preferences, many people can sleep on about anything and so they just choose what feels soft and cushy. That's the majority of people, I think, and in part, this - people's preferences for very soft mattresses - is what has driven the mattress companies to put too much PU foam on top.

But some people can just sleep on anything, especially younger people. I would bet that if you checked the attendance here over the past 5 years or so, most of the regulars here are/were those who are old enough to start having back problems, usually mid-30's and up. I doubt very many people in their 20's are having mattress "issues". They can sleep on about anything... I could be wrong, but that is my guess.

There are of course always a few younger people with back issues but not that many. But like you said, sometimes the mattresses CAUSE the back problems, too... and that makes perfect sense with all the super soft PU foam toppers being sold, and memory foam (which in my opinion does not really provide proper support).

As to horse hair, pig hair, etc... Yuk. But lamb's wool, I LOVE IT! I wear wool slippers and they are the most comfortable things on earth. When I come home I can't wait to put them on. Lambs are cute... but pig hair? horse hair? No thanks.

Can't wait for my Dunlop Natural 1.5" and my Talalay Natural 1" - both natural latex - to arrive on Wednesday!
This message was modified Jan 26, 2010 by jimsocal
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #54 Jan 26, 2010 3:20 PM
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
Points: 156
I also agrree that the older mattress sets were built to last much longer.   We still have the queen size mattress set we bought when I got married in 1980!  It is a "Sears Best"  Searsopedic  which was made by Sealy at the time I believe.   After almost 30 years of continuous use, that mattress is still very comfortable and in part time use in my adult daughters former bedroom.   Of coursee it sags a little but barely noticeable when in use!    Sometimes I wonder why I stopped sleeping on it to buy my new all latex mattress....hahaha.     Just figured that after 30 years it was time for an "upgrade".   How many of today's spring mattresses will last 30 years?
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #55 Jan 28, 2010 7:38 PM
Joined: Dec 31, 2009
Points: 35
budgy wrote:
think of it as body indentations that you can indefinitely keep on 'temporarily repairing'.  However, as far as my understand this is only a feature that Hastens uses (the ability to 'massage' or re-fluff the upholstery layers). And I will also mention that basically every other brand I have seen that also uses horsehair uses it in very small amounts or it is used in conjunction with a lot of other materials without the same basic properties.   


Thanks, Budgy! This makes a lot of sense. I might PM you w some follow-up questions so as not to bombard everyone else w my specific qs that might not be applicable to all.
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #56 Mar 2, 2010 4:10 PM
Joined: Nov 27, 2009
Points: 21
Well i've had the T2000 from hastens for a couple months now and I'd have to say it is the worst mattress i've had.  I'm waking up sore, tired and short fused every morning. 
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #57 Mar 2, 2010 6:01 PM
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Points: 793
dodo2, I am sorry to hear that you are not happy with your new mattress. Thanks for the update.  Does the company where you bought your mattress let you exchange it or do anything to make you comfortable?
Re: The Prince and the Pea... yes, we really can be that sensitive!
Reply #58 Mar 2, 2010 11:09 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1160
markbnh1 wrote:
 How many of today's spring mattresses will last 30 years?

0.0

Recent Posts