You can find that exact same mattress in several places (see the links that I posted in another thread) for hundreds less.

You can also find the equivalent or better (not the exact same) for hundreds less.

Of course "$1000 in free gifts" makes it all worth it (laughing). If I could sell the gifts for $1000 I would buy it.

Phoenix

Some misinformation or spin on the site

Their mattress comparison chart doesn't agree in some cases with the individual descriptions

There is no information about how thick the layers are

The 8" has 2.5 lb memory foam ... I don't consider that suitable for any mattress

The 9" claims in the individual description to have 8lb memory foam in it (comparison chart says 5.34). While there are a few 8lb memory foams (from Foamex and probably others). This is likely absolute BS unless the foam comes from China.

They are using "airflow" systems which usually indicates a "hot" memory foam or another attempt to "link" themselves to Tempur. Means it's less likely that the foam is breathable.

Their "typical" memory foam is 5.34 lb which is a marketing slant trying to emulate Tempur. If they were getting their foam from Carpenter or Foamex or some of the other North American manufacturers and they really wanted people to know that, they would have Foamex or Carpenter densities or at least they wouldn't re-brand their foam and be upfront about where it came from. I wonder how forthcoming they would be if you called them and ask them where their foam came from.

They sell RV mattresses. While this is not a bad thing in and of itself, there is a whole "ring" of sellers online who specialize in selling so called RV mattresses in regular in home sizes in an effort to get around the fire code. Most of them have a tuck under mattress cover instead of a zippered enclosure. They all come from the same supplier which specializes in drop shipping for "online entrepreneurs" with no money and in many cases no ethics. They keep changing their name(s). Most of these are memory foam and Plush are selling latex RV mattresses so I doubt they are part of this "ring" but I would be wary.

Enough to make you cautious and make a phone call to get some specific and pointed and believable answers before you buy anything from them?

Phoenix

Thanks for the input. We are looking at latex mattress. From our research we would like to have all natural latex with two or three layers. Would like to have ILD at the core of 35 and 2nd layer 22. Have tried the latex mattress and have found them comfortable.   Just trying to put together the right specs for us. My wife is not a big fan of memory foam. We have the usual back and shoulder problems.

                                    sy 

Phoenix

Thanks for the information. We will seek out various mattress types of ILD combinations and try them. Unfortunately there is nothing in our immediate area that carries what we are looking for. So we will have to search out stores. Verlo has has latex bed that is 5 inch 35 ild and 3 inch 24 ild and that felt just a little too firm. Their other mattress was a 5" latex blend on the core with 35 ild and 2 -2" in layers of Talalay ild 19 which seemed to be too soft. So I'm thinking we need something inbetween.

                                                          sy

Assuming that you lay on the two mattresses enough (at least 15 minutes each without interruption in your "normal sleep positions" as if you were going to sleep) to tell how close they were in terms of both comfort and support, I'm guessing that 3" in the 22 range over a core in the 28-32 range would be getting even closer. You'd want to know whether the cores were Dunlop or Talalay as well.

Phoenix

Dunlop vs. talalay.  Are these ratings accurate??

Soft Dunlop:  22-30

Medium Dunlop: 31-39

Firm Dunlop: 40 and above

Soft Talalay: N2 Soft 20-24

Medium Talalay: N4 Medium 30-34

Firm Talalay: N5 Firm 35-40+

We are considering going with a dunlop core and the top talalay.

                                                    sy

Having said that, The Dunlop will probably feel a little firmer than the ratings indicate compared to Talalay. I personally would tend to move them up in the scale a little. Talalay has a little more "give" to it.

Dunlop under one layer of Talalay will also make the overall mattress feel a little firmer based on my real world testing but it was not a huge difference.

Phoenix

Just curious as well, while the goldbond is more expensive, I called the ecosleep people when I was doing my research and while they normally don't sell direct to the public, they did put me in touch with 2 dealers who would ship me a mattress at a "special price". Actually what would have happened is that ecosleep would have drop shipped an order I placed with their dealer. The best price of the 2 dealers I talked to was $1439 (including shipping). What did they quote you at Verlo?

Was it the triumph you tried?

Phoenix

Added: The price I quoted above was one of the dealers and in looking at my notes it wasn't the best price of the two. The other one quoted $1350 including shipping. The mattress was (from top to bottom) 2" 19, 2" 24, and 5" 36. All Talalay. This was for either the Cassidy or the Sundance (different covers).

Also corrected virtue and triumph which I had mixed up

The ones we tried at Verlo were the harmony virtue - 5" Talalay 35 ILD core and 2 - 2 inch talalay ILD 19   price $1668  queen

The other was the harmony - 5" Talalay 35 ILD core and 3" talalay ILD 24  price $1538  queen.

Also the talalay is a blend and I was looking at more organic type products. I realize they are more expensive and I'll have to set a budget but would like to have a sound product.

Appreciate your insight. Looks like fall brings on some pretty good sales. So the search will continue and we need to try out some of the different lines out there.

                                                                  sy

Your thoughts on Habitat Furnishings and OMI. I know OMI is very high price but their product looks excellent.

                                                  sy

About OMI and "organics" in general.

There is a lot of misinformation here and this misinformation was part of a long conversation I had today and has also been the topic of other long conversations with many others.

In general, people are misusing the term "organic" and confusing it with "natural". People are also putting organic covers on mattresses that have all natural materials like 100% natural Talalay or Dunlop and then calling the mattress organic. This is absolute misinformation.

At the moment (and this may soon change) there is only one type of latex that has been certified as organic latex and it comes from Latex Green. It is dunlop latex. They also make a 100% natural dunlop latex.

Up till now, I and many others believed that the only major difference between the two was that the organic version came from rubber trees that had been segregated for a few years and didn't use any pesticides in the early years of the rubber trees' growth. This (and some other things as well) was part of the process that was required to label it as "certified organic". The consensus was that other than that it was pretty much the same and it certainly felt the same as the 100% natural. Some information I found out today is that it may be a higher quality than their 100% natural latex. It apparently doesn't "flake" when you cut it into layers and this was surprising even to the person who told me (Ken from a previous post). This indicates that there is some difference in how it is made but of course that is an assumption and not yet proven. It may after all be worth the extra cost over the 100% natural version even if you are not an organic purist. I doubt I would use it but there at least seems to be some evidence that there is a qualitative difference in it

Having said that, all the dealers for OMI will tell you that they are the most "organic" company out there and that they for example don't ever mix any of their natural products production with their organic products production and don't even ship them in the same trucks as their organic products ...  that you can "eat off their floors" ... etc etc. This may or may not be true ... but I certainly am not as sure as I was a few days ago. One thing that is for sure is that they use Talalay in their mattresses and there is currently no Talalay in the world that is organic. This means that other mattresses that do use organic dunlop latex covered with organic wool and/or cotton or other certified organic materials in their mattresses are certainly more organic than OMI, no matter how clean their production is.

What I also know is that their beds are very comfortable and beautiful and you can read more about my feelings about them in another thread. I also know that they are not the only "mostly organic" option and that I believe that their beds are way overpriced compared to other "mostly organic" options. They are way way overpriced compared to mattresses that are a combination of 100% natural and organic ingredients (which is really what OMI is). If someone can show you the certification for the organic latex in their mattress and they also can show you the certification for the other materials, then they can reasonably call their mattress organic. Technically it is still not an organic mattress since even if every ingredient in it has been certified organic ... including the fire barrier ... it is not completely organic until the mattress itself has been certified as a complete unit. There is currently no mattress that I am aware of in the world that has done this. So an absolute correct description of the current most organic mattress out there (which is not OMI) would be that they are selling a mattress which only contains 100% organic materials. An Oeko-Tex certification (which many have for their latex) is not the same as an organic certification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oeko-tex_standard

In my other thread (where I listed a bunch of links), there are links to sites that have every bit as "organic" a mattress as OMI and they are considerably less expensive. There are also many more that I didn't include that are well worth looking at. It was not meant to be a comprehensive list of every place that had great value. I would not buy an OMI no matter how important "organic" was to me as there are many other options where you will end up with at least as nice a mattress with the same or better level of "organicy" (in the true meaning of the made up word) for much much less.

My feeling about blended Talalay as I mentioned in the other thread is that especially in the lower ild's that it is a slightly superior product to the all natural Talalay. This is true whether the blended latex comes from Radium or from Latex International IMO. The all natural Talalay from LI is a "green driven" product which is very nice and more natural obviously than the blend (whether from Radium or LI) but in terms of it's quality or properties, it is very questionable that it is a "better" product and the testing indicates that it does not have the same ability to resist compression in the lower ild's. If more natural was important to someone, then the 100% natural Talalay latex may be worth the extra cost. Dunlopillo also make a 100% natural Talalay but I don't know of any mattresses in North America that use it in an all Talalay mattress. If someone does then let me know. I did talk to a manufacturer in Canada who was using Dunlopillo but they could only get it in one firmness and were using different poly layers to adjust the firmness of the mattress.

Regardless of the truth of all of this, it is clear to me that all of the reliable Talalay producers are making very good product regardless of the more "minute" differences. The reliable Dunlop producers are also making very good product regardless of the differences here as well. The only producers I would really question are the Chinese ... not because they are definitely bad but because most people just don't know and there is evidence that they could be inferior. There is apparently (at least) one Chinese producer of Talalay latex that used to only produce pillows but is now apparently producing cores. Don't have a lot of information about this. There are also Chinese factories that are now partly owned by American manufacturers (Sleep science and Classic brands are two) that are producing mattresses to American specifications for American manufacturers but I'm guessing that the cores themselves don't come from China. There are also other producers of latex ... including from India ... and this may be an interesting area to watch.

There very well may be more additions to this story over the coming weeks and months.

Phoenix

Phoenix

I believe that harmony  model (5" & 3 ") will be phased in time due to the new line they just released. The owner said they still have it listed in their inventory.  I have been researching your suggestions and I like the tomorrow's world and latex mattress shop. Will continue reading thru the others tomorrow.

                         sy

I didn't include these guys in my previous list but you can get an idea of how far some stores will go in their search for something really organic. They actually do third party testing on their materials apparently (not just rely on manufacturer specs and testing).

http://www.purerest.com/Mattresses/100-Organic-9-Pillowtop-Mattress

Queen with 8" of organic Dunlop latex is $2378

http://www.purerest.com/Mattresses/10-Certified-Organic-Rubber-Mattresses

Queen with 9" of organic Dunlop latex is $2548

They also have a mattress which has 9" (3x3) of Dunlop latex which is identical to the 9" organic except the Dunlop is only 100% Natural and it is on "special" for $1399.

The outer stuff (cotton wool etc) is the same they told me.

http://www.purerest.com/Mattresses/10-Budget-Mattress-Comparable-to-Other-Suppliers

and then if you look here:

http://www.mattresses.net/queen-organic-latex-mattress.html

You will find the same 8" of certified organic latex from the same latex manufacturer with a certified organic wool/cotton zippered cover for $1699.

I don't think they have 3rd party testing but the level of organicy (there's that word again) and the ingredients are the same for about $700 less.

They also have here http://www.mattresses.net/100--natural-latex-green-bed---watch-video.html

an all natural version (8") with a basic cotton cover and your choice of the Latex Green 100% natural Dunlop or the Latexco (from Belgium) 100% natural 7 zoned Dunlop which sells for $1049

or  here http://www.mattresses.net/queen-adjustable-ultra-plush-latex-sleep-system.html

6" blended Talalay and 2" blended Talalay with a wool (1.5") and cotton cover for $1095

Upgrade to 100% natural Talalay and wool and bamboo cover for $1249

and they will customize the thickness or type of any layers any way you want and alter the zippered cover to fit.

and then if you look here

http://www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-sale.htm

You will find 6" 100% natural Dunlop and 2" natural Talalay with a basic cotton cover for $995

All examples are for a queen size. Shipping costs vary from site to site so don't forget to factor that in when you are making comparisons (the Pure Rest is the most, Arizona mattress is a lot less and Sleepez is free)

All of these sites have many other options as well and all of these can be customized to differing degrees.

Nothing here is meant to exclude some of the other links I mentioned before or sites I haven't even mentioned that have different levels of "customization" and "organicy" or "naturalness" and depending on what's important to you ... equally great value.

There's lots of choices out there

Phoenix

My wife and I will be traveling around testing out the various latex combinations this weekeknd. With you knowlwdge and expereince, how much mark up is there in mattresses? Have you found you can negotiate prices within reason?

Thanks!

                                               sy

Gallery, Select Comfort lead in performance

By Clint Engel -- Furniture Today, May 28, 2008

High Point — High Point— It's getting to be a broken record, but Gallery Furniture again took the crown in two out of three Top 100 performance categories, duking it out with Select Comfort, which was tops in the third.

The Houston-based Gallery, No. 56 on the Top 100, was the sales-per-square-foot leader, reporting an average of $1,600 — blowing away all comers as well as the $289 median for the 49 companies for which estimates were available.

Gallery's stock turns also were tops (again) among the Top 100, turning an average of 28 times.

In both categories, No. 12 Select Comfort was second again with sales per square foot averaging $1,264 —the only other retailer to top $1,000 — and stock turning an average of 23 times.

The Minneapolis-based airbed maker and retailer was the leader in the gross margin category with a 59.4% average, followed by No. 91 Domain at 52.1%, and No. 3 Pier 1 Imports at 51.6%.

Gallery tied for fourth with No. 72 Norwalk — The Furniture Idea and No. 64 Dial-A-Mattress, all with 50% average margins.

Gallery and Select Comfort were the only companies to appear on the Top 10 of all three performance categories — again — while No. 1 Rooms To Go, No. 64 Dial-A-Mattress and No. 75 Sit'n Sleep made it on two of the three lists.

RTG posted the third-best sales per square foot at $900 and the 10th-best stock turns — averaging 8 times.

Long Island City, N.Y.-based Dial-A-Mattress tied for third with an average gross margin of 50%, and was fourth again with stocks turning an average of 16 times.

Gardena, Calif.-based Sit 'n Sleep, which appeared twice last year and the year before, posted the seventh-best stock turn rate, an average of 11 times, and the ninth-best sales per square foot.

The median inventory turn for the Top 100 was 5.6 times based on 33 estimates, an improvement over the 5.4 median turns for last year's Top 100. With 25 estimates, the median gross margin was 46%, up from 45% for the Top 100 last year.

Despite Gallery's strong sales-per-square-foot performance — bettering its number last year by $230 — the median of $289 in sales per square foot for this year's Top 100 was below the $300 median for last year's group.

When a product is certified organic it really means the covers themselves, what you want to look for in an organic mattress with regards to rubber cores is simply 3rd party certification testing for polymer content (ratio of NR to SBR) and VOC, PBDE, heavy metal content.  I am actually also a dealer of Natura product, and they have been using latex green natural dunlop cores in their organic mattresses for the past year or 2.  The rubber is fantastic quality and has always had 3rd party certification for the natural content, I was told recently that they are seeking organic certification and maybe already have it...however the product has not changed...their natural rubber IS what they are seeking to label as organic rubber.....personally I believe that to be a little bit misleading from the sense that there are a couple different makers of the same quality and purity of natural rubber cores and the companies for good reason do not label the rubber as being organic.  Saying it is organically grown is really the proper terminology. 

Up until recently most people (that I talked to anyway) believed that this was simply a "relabeling" of their 100% natural product (at a higher price of course) using latex that had been segregated from their "main" plantation and certified as not using any pesticides in the early years of the trees growth and all the other things that "certification" requires, however there are some indications that their organic latex is qualitatively different from their 100% natural latex.

NAOMI "organic"

http://www.naomiorganics.com/naomicertifiedvendors.html

Phoenix

PS: Changed one of the links to the Bedroom magazine article instead of a vendors article.

Added later: link to USDA certified latex article was removed as Bedroom magazine is sleep related and accepts advertising which is against the TOS here. It basically said that there was now USDA organic certified latex

One of these is "Oregon Tilth" which certifies fibers and textiles for GOTS and others (including the USDA). http://tilth.org/certification/standards/standards-and-regulatons

OMI, NATUREPEDIC, and LIFEKIND claim that they are GOTS certified (Through Oregon Tilth).

I couldn't find LIFEKIND on either the Oregon Tilth website or the GOTS website so I phoned them. Well it turns out that they and OMI both manufacture in the same facility and are sister companies owned by the same people. They told me that they had just noticed a couple of days ago that Lifekind was not listed and plan to correct that.

So at this point here are the "organic" mattresses in North America

OMI (Cotton mattresses only)

LIFEKIND (yet to be listed as to which mattress)

NATUREPEDIC (Ultra crib mattresses only)

Since there doesn't seem to be a list on the USDA site of approved organic products, and since the USDA superceded all other private organic standards when it was implemented in 2002 http://tilth.org/certification/standards/standards-and-regulatons it "appears" that Latex Green at this point has the only "certified organic" latex available.

This also means of course that the NAOMI standard which I included in the last post ... while it may show "purity" levels higher even than the USDA standards (don't know the exact USDA levels) it cannot certify something as organic in the US (only tests for purity and not necessarily for the entire "organic chain of production" and it is not on the USDA or GOTS list of certifiers).

Phoenix

Do you carry the Sueno and Obasan as well as the Vimala?

If you do what do you (and your customers) think of them?

Phoenix

the Vimala was just recenty revised although it was our most popular mattress.  my brother sleeps on one, and I probably would have gotten one for myself however before we got the line I took the plunge on a Natura Eco Haven, which I am very happy with btw.  More than anything I just really like the base systems the GreenSleep beds use.

we do carry some Sueno product which we have actually private labelled so we could get Obasan's fabric on one of the beds.  The name Obasan is only sold direct from the manufacturer.  they are fantastic mattresses, customers generally like them a lot very comparable to the Natura organic line interms of the different build ups.  Although they do things a little bit differently. 

I really do believe though that when it comes to the quality of the raw materials and construction that GreenSleep is in a league of its own...we usually end up comparing those mattresses to beds in much higher price categories like Hypnos and Vi-Spring because from a build quality stand point that is really the more direct competition.  So a lot of really happy people there, although I think that rubber has some limitations so there is no real guarantee that the beds will deliver 100% of what people want, however I do believe that if someone had a Vimala or the new Dolcezza model from them and they were not satisfied then really no all latex mattress would have worked. 

I lay on the eco haven there and it was too firm for both of us but it was a good reference point. The transcend was too firm as well although it was on sale for a very good price and we "tried to like it" because of the price. We both liked the slats. They also carried the OMI Terra and that spoiled both of us, especially in it's softest configuration which we liked the best and it became our initial reference point for what we tended to like. They also had some Englander "all latex" as well and also carried slabs of latex to make your own but we didn't know that at the time (cause they didn't show us).

The other store had their own brand of "custom layers" but while we learned a lot about the feel we liked, we didn't like the quality of their ticking (well actually my other half didn't like it cause she notices stuff like frayed edges more than me). They also carried magniflex which didn't impress us with either the price or the "features" in all their different types of "additives" in the ticking. When we went back to the first place after this was when we found out they also had "make your own layers".

We made a lot of trips to other places as well and at that point I hadn't even discovered this forum yet.

I never did lay on a green sleep but I liked the look of the obasan a lot when I saw it online.

Anyhow, I'm just rambling on as she is marking papers (she's a teacher) in our bed so I can't go and crash yet (laughing).

Gonna go and see if I can convince her to go to sleep.

Good night

Phoenix

OMI is all 'natural' talalay right?  They actually tried to contact us a long time ago to carry their product....how would you compare the product to the Natura's you tried on the overall? 

We also had Magniflex contact us to become a dealer....their product seems very confusing and very gimmicky, I really was not interested in it whatsoever.

The Terra has a Talalay core and then "softer" latex on either side and then the topper. They do say it's all natural but their literature doesn't say the other layers are Talalay although I would think they were (and some other places say it is all Talalay). At the time I wasn't really considering it due to the price but I did like it's feel a lot. It would probably be safe to say that if it wasn't for the Terra and that we both wanted something that felt as good as that but within our budget, I would probably have bought something much sooner. It was the desire to reproduce it and see "what else was out there" that was the initial impetus to my research before it took on a life of its own. It to me felt and looked much nicer than any of the Natura's that I either lay on or even saw. It was very impressive. Their 81 was also very interesting and from a retail point of view could be quite practical as there are no comfort exchanges (it has 81 different configurations).

The magniflex to me was one big series of gimmics. I did lay on a couple and they were ok but nothing special ... especially for their price range. Even the salesperson there didn't treat them too seriously. I guess I just couldn't see the benefit of 22 karat gold impregnated yarn ... or any of their other "special benefits".

Phoenix

Congratulations on your mattress. Sounds like you hit the right formula. Enjoy!!!!

My wife and I are continuing our hunt. Ran into the back store and came across Swiss Rest. Was very comfortable and all talalay latex. Also tried the OMI lago. Here are the specs on the Swiss Rest: The cushion firm was a great combination for us. Euro pillow top was quilted latex. Latex Int. is the supplier. I am cking out the company on the web.

Have you heard of them? Positive/negative??

                                             sy

They are one of a large "family" of websites (at least 20) that I came across often in different iterations in my research. I came to recognize them pretty quickly and kept adding to a long list of sites that was (sort of) the same so I wouldn't keep covering the same ground. At that time most of them hadn't attached the name "Swiss Rest" to their mattress (and I don't think most of them do even now). They have been around for quite a while and specialize in adjustable beds and "medical" applications although they sell to consumers as well. They are all in the electropedic "family" of businesses and to their credit, at least the bbb rating of this site is an A (don't know if this covers the whole family or just this site).

I wanted to talk to someone closer to the "origin" of all these websites so I talked with someone here (pretty sure it was this one anyway but I'd have to go through a bunch of old notes to be sure) . This may or may not be the main site (Its different from the previous link) but I'm glad I called it.

The different websites had a lot of conflicting information and prices and they seemed very disorganized. For example at some sites the breakdown of the outer layers is 1.1, at other sites it is 1.9. Perhaps this is the difference between their high and low profile but I thought their low profile was just the core.

Having said that, I did have quite a long conversation with the person I talked to and he was quite up front with me. He said they were in a kind of "transition" period and that they hadn't really decided on a mattress that they wanted to "promote". He acknowledged the confusion that could come from the differing information at their many websites. He did say that while he personally did like the mattress with 1.1 + 5.6 + 1.1 ... that they were having some problems with it especially on adjustable beds. He seemed to know what he was talking about and seemed very honest ... but what he said didn't inspire me about the company (even though I appreciated the person). The main reason I talked to them was because of their combination of latex mattresses and the selection of adjustable beds at good prices (at least if you bought both from them) but not the best prices.

In the end, I was getting so much conflicting information about them that I pretty much decided to pass them by given the amount of choice there was out there.

Everything I did with them though was on the internet, it sounds like you found a bricks and mortar outlet. If that is the case then of course your research becomes much easier. FWIW ... the Latex International blended talalay comes in 5.6 inch slabs. The all natural is 6". Even many/most of the blended they are producing now is 6".

I would personally question outer layers that were that thin (1.1 or 1.9 depending on which website you go to) but personal experience should always overrule theory.

I also believe that each of the different outlets has some degree of "independence" so the actual mattresses may be different as well.

There is another "family" of websites (homeplacegroup) that I spend many hours trying to "unravel" that is even worse with outdated pricing and information. In their case all their sites lead to the same place (or at least the same place answers the phone). They would not honor any of the adjustable bed/mattress combinations I was interested in and kept trying to do a bait and switch with me (with the better value similar pricing BS).

So was this an actual store where you lay on mattresses?

Phoenix

http://www.dremata.com/contact.html

http://www.greenmattressfactory.com/

How is the new mattress working out?? Hope all is going well. 

The store we went to was The Back Store. They do mostly tempur-pedic with some other mattresses thrown in. We went there because they carried the OMI and we wanted to try them to rate them with other mattresses we tried. We tried the Terra, Lago and Flora. The Terra was nice but we like the Lago for a little more support and the Flora was too firm. After we layed on the OMI's,  the owner directed us to the Swiss Rest. The feel was between the Terra and the Lago. So I spoke with the sales rep after reading your response and advised I would like more info on the product and informed him I couldn't find anything directly related to Swiss Rest. He advised a sale rep from the company will call to answer my questions. The company name is Advanced Medical which is owned by The Back Store which does not have a public web site. Sounds strange to me. Have a list of questions when the rep calls.

It is so hard trying to find latex mattresses to try out. In our area there are no latex mattress dealers with some of the brands we have researched on the web and we had to travel two hours to try out the OMI's. I think we are getting close to understanding the various comfort levels with ILD's.

Questions - Does the blended latex have a different density then natural latex or are they close in the ILD ratings? If you use a blend what is the best % for blending?  Is it better mattress construction for the different layers which make up the comfort levels to be "glued or adhered" together for a better fell or doesn't it matter?

Will let you know what the company rep has to say.

                                                sy

Blended Talalay and natural Talalay would feel very similar if they had the same ILD. I doubt that anyone could tell the difference if they didn't know which was which. Natural would be a little "springier" but the difference would be very small. Not as much difference as there would be between a similar ild layer of Dunlop latex and Talalay latex.

Here is a discussion between Latex international and Savvy Rest that talks about it a little more: http://www.savvyrest.com/blog/qa-our-talalay-suppliers

What city are you in? I may have some small supplier in my list near you.

And the mattress is wonderful. I can honestly say I haven't slept this well for a long time. No back issues for either of us so far either which would have been my only concern given that it is softer than many people would choose.

Phoenix

                                      sy

Have visited those places and they don't have anything that interests us. Have not been contacted by the rep for Swiss Rest so I may be steering clear of them. I have been looking closely at tomorrows world cozy embrace. Their 7" core is dunlop 28/32/28 with  3" of talalay 19 plus the quilted cover of 1/2 dunlop latex and wool in a cotton covering is tempting and is close to our ILD numbers. Trying to determine how the talalay 35 core of 6" in the OMI with 3" talalay 22 would compare. I am thinking the embrace would feel more in line with Swiss Rest with the 19 talalay but can't be sure due to the dunlop core.  We are going to continue our search and try to find some dunlop mattresses to try and feel the difference between the two types of latex. Got to run just had a call from the Swiss Rest rep. Talk with you later and let you know what he has to say.

                                                    sy

Phoenix

Spoke wiith the Swiss Rest rep. He makes the mattresses at electropedic. Advised it was a separate operation. They use a blended talalay from LI. The mattress core is 5.5" 36 ILD and the top and bottom of the mattress are 1.9" of 24 ILD. The cover is some type of cotton foam. He mentioned something about whisper shield base.  Not really comfortable with this operation.

Spoke with a rep fromTomorrow's World and trying to figure out which mattress would compare to the Swiss Rest. Looks like the embrace or caress are in the running. Will comtinue to shop around and lay on some mattresses which have similar layers of the ILD which Tomorrow's World  offers.

Apprecaite all your advice. It has been helpful. Will let you know how things work out.

                                                                                        sy

In the process of making a deal on a latex mattress. The store also handles tempur-pedic and suggested using their foundation as it was premium 5/8" density fiberboard and provides good mattress support.

Thoughts?? Recommendations??

                                       sy 

I would also be very careful about paying too much on a foundation as some places will use that to "make up" for any discounts you get on a mattress. They can be a major profit center particularly if they are a "name brand" foundation. There are a lot of places where you can get a good and perfectly suitable foundation for a very reasonable cost.

Is it the Swiss Rest back store you are talking to?

Phoenix

The mattress set was originally $3699 and I have the cost down to $2800. It is the OMI and I believe it is a good deal. Was curious if the foundation needed to be constructed in a special way or if the tempur-pedic foundation would be ok. The specs look like it is well built.

                                                                      sy 

Any good foundation that is well built and is designed to support a heavier latex (or memory foam) mattress would be fine. The slats should be 2-3 inches apart depending on how wide they are and of course closer together means stronger. I wouldn't pay more than about $300 for a foundation since there are many in that range that would do perfectly well unless you are looking for esthetics and matching fabric.

Phoenix

Back to the drawing board. Made a final offer three days ago and they have not returned my call. 

Az. mattress. Spoke with Ken for about 30 minutes. Was very informative and seems to know the mattress business. Prices are low. BBB had the company rated as a F but there wasn't much to base the rating on that I could find. Don't know if the rating is accurate or not. Business use to be Mattress Liquidators. He strongly supports a core of 5.5" blended or 6" natural talalay then going with a 2" topper. He believes the 3 layers (like sleep ez/ flobed) minimize support. Strong supporter of blended talalay. Have you had any dealing or knowledge of the company. From what I researched it looks like an option. Am still going thru sleep ez, flo bed and others. Not in a hurry at this point. What to make sure we come up with the right combination for us.

                     sy   

He was one of my "final 3" and at the time the biggest "downside" was that I didn't know he could customize a mattress in any way I wanted. I came to believe from my personal experience that I wanted more than 2" of a softer layer on top (although what he told me about 2" made sense as well and is probably true for most people). I found out later that he could have added another 2" and changed the cover for an additional $200. For that matter he could add a 3" top layer if someone wanted it but he believes that 2" is more appropriate for most which is why he lists this on his website. He also uses Radium as his supplier for the blended Talalay and Latex International for his natural Talalay. Radium is to Europe what LI is to North America in terms of latex.

I also saw the "F" rating but I know how the BBB works for non members (they are a private for profit company and rate companies that are members differently than non members) and the 2 complaints in 36 months registered with one unresolved did not seem to justify the rating. In my experience and based on what I learned from (and about) him (and many others of course), I would have no problems doing business with him and he certainly represents great value in my opinion.

Phoenix

 Are there any  differences (advantages/disadvantages) in feel, support  and comfort between 2 piece adjustable mattresses (6" core 2" topper) vs 3 - 2" layers pieces? I have tried only the two piece mattress set ups and I know you have tried both.

Thanks!

                             sy

In general 2 pieces of latex of the same ILD will be slightly softer and have a little more give than the same thickness in one piece of the same ILD. The thinner the layers, the more noticeable this may be.

In a support layer (deeper layer) of normal thickness, this could make a very small difference in the alignment of your spine in theory since the two pieces could allow you to sink in very slightly more. I really doubt this would be noticeable in any real terms in a support layer though in the thickness of layers that are usually used. Of course with 2 pieces you could have different ILD's as well which can make a bigger difference and allow you to customize different feels and how far you sink in to a greater degree. How important this was would depend on an individual, weight distribution, sensitivity, and personal preference and how suitable a particular ILD in a single layer was for your circumstances.

So having the ability to choose support layers in different ILD's can be an advantage if no single ILD seems to work or if you want to "experiment" to get from 90% to 100% perfection. I think in general terms though ... in a support layer it is less important and can create a degree of complexity that can cause as much confusion as it can help in some cases. Support is really the ability of the support layers to keep your spine aligned through the range of your sleeping positions. If you have the "correct for you" ILD and thickness in a single support layer, then there would be no advantage and even a disadvantage to splitting it in two.

In the upper (comfort) layers, thickness and splitting layers can make a bigger difference in my experience. Both I and my other half like a soft "feel" and are sensitive to pressure (her more than me). What we noticed was that for example 3 x 1" layers on the top of a mattress felt much more like 2" than a single 3" piece. In both of our cases, we noticed that a 2" piece (or the equivalent) on top would allow us to sink in and feel the "transition" (on our sides) from one ILD to the next in the mattress. If the next ILD was a fairly big difference and not "gradual" enough ... we didn't like the feel and could sense pressure on our hips if we "bounced" a little bit. This indicated to us that we would be happier with a 3" layer on top (or at least 2.5"). I doubt that the majority of people would have noticed this as much as we did because we were specifically testing for this "transition effect" and paid a lot of attention to it. We knew for example that we could feel this effect in a mattress that had 3 one inch layers of 19 ILD on top of 28 ild since one mattress we tested had that specific combination. It probably would have been fine if the top was say 22 ILD with 28 as the next layer as it was right on the edge of our ability to feel it. Other mattresses that had 2" on top of the mattress had this same "transition" effect for us but again we were looking and testing for it. 3" in the correct (for us) combination didn't have this effect. Our body makeup probably makes a difference here since both of us have fairly small waists and have hips and shoulders that are quite a bit wider than our waist.

The final solution for us was to go with both 3" on top and a more gradual transition in a "soft/medium" ild range. Others (as you can see from the wide variety on the forum) would probably be happier with a different combination.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Spent a good 30 minutes on the telephone with Bob from Custom Sleep Design. Provided a good overview of his mattress design and based on our sizes/shoulder/back issues he sent a break down of each layer of the 3 layers with zoned areas for hip and shoulder support. The core was 6" (40 ILD on my side 36 ILD on my wife's side) the next 3" layer was zoned  34" (measured from the top of the mattress toward the foot of the bed)  of 32 ILD top part / the remaining 46" of the mattress was 36 ILD for me and my wife's was zoned 32" of  28 ILD for the top part and 32 ILD for the bottom 48". The final 2" layer was zoned 31" of 19 ILd on the top part and the remaining 49" bottom was 28 for me and my wife's side was 29" of 14ILD on the top part and 28 ILD on the bottom 51".  Will be talking with him tomorrow concerning firmness, exchanges, layout of the zoned layers and of course pricing. He will do blended or natural latex. I know some people have had good overall experiences with him. Need to know how this zoning works.

Are you familiar with it? Sounds like a good way to maintain support and comfort.

                                              sy

This is the basic idea and I believe it is a very good method of customizing a mattress.

Phoenix

PS: Cazual in this thread http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dr-breus-bed-talalay-latex/16100-0-1.html just got a mattress there and could give you more real life impressions and feedback

The search has ended. Today my wife and I ordered our latex mattress from Custom Sleep Design. After numerous discussions on the phone and sending pictures, Bob and his staff designed a bed that will hopefully meet our needs. I feel comfortable with the decision and now will be anixously awaiting its arrival in three weeks. I really appreciate your assistance and input the past weeks. I do like the option of changing the layers if necessary and the split zones to provide support and comfort. In reading a thread from the lady who resides in the Quad cities which is about 180 miles from us you may recommend this company. Their prices with a foundation are reasonable. Will let you know how things work out once our mattress arrvies. Again, many thanks!   God bless and have a blessed Thanksgiving!!

If you are happy then I am happy. :)

Let us know how it is when it arrives.

Phoenix

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!

Thought I would drop you a note on our mattress. Arrived one week before Christmas and we found the mattress was too firm. Spoke wiith Bob yesterday and he will be adjusting our two top layers to make it softer and they will ship the two layers next week. I think once we make the right adjustments the bed will be great.

                                                                                           sy

I'm curious because the 19 and 14 ILD part of the top layer zoning is pretty soft already so I'm guessing that the 28 ILD in the upper layer is too firm for your hips?

I'd also be curious what you are exchanging for as every piece of feedback is really helpful to  help someone else in a similar position to you to "get it right".

Thanks again for your feedback

Phoenix

Here is a break down of our layers:

Peg's initial specs

top layer 2" zoned   ILD 28/24   

middle layer 3"  ILD 32

core 6" 36

Bob's recommendations to soften

top layer 2" zoned 14/24

middle layer 3" ILD 28

core 6" 36

Steve initial specs

top layer 2" zoned   ILD 19/28   

middle layer 3" zoned  ILD  32/36

core 6" 40

Bob's recommendations to soften

top layer 2" zoned  ILD 19/24

middle layer 3" zoned  ILD   24/32

core 6" 40

Bob will exchange both layers and make additional corrections as needed. One thing I've learned is the different combinations make a hugh difference. It is too bad there was nothing in our immediate area to try the various thickness layers and ILD's. I would have liked to go to his store and eliminate the guess work. Bob has been very informative and helpful. He is willing to go out of his way to ensure the product is right.

                                                                                                 sy