Wool is the most breathable but also (like memory foam) has little resiliency (support) and can compact and doesn't form a "cradle" in the same way as foams which means it will probably feel harder than the other 2 options.

Latex is very breathable (less than wool but more than memory foam including Aerus), almost as pressure relieving as memory foam, and resilient (springs back) so is able to provide support to the "gaps" in your sleeping profile. High quality poly (not memory foam which is a form of poly) would work in a similar way.

A wool mattress pad over memory foam is quite popular as it reduces the heat many people feel on memory foam (it's very breathable) and will reduce the heat that reaches the memory foam which reduces how much you sink into it. The down side of this is that it makes some types of memory foam feel to hard (they don't melt enough) for some people.

The specs of the mattress you are putting it over and knowing your height weight and sleeping positions would help with better suggestions regarding thickness. It is probable though that 4" would be too much and doubling 2.5" to make it 5" would almost certainly be too much (again depending on your sleeping positions and weight)

Phoenix

I am having trouble finding latex toppers, I did find one at sleepwarehouse for a reasonable price in a three inch topper.

Would the latex 16-18 ild be soft enough to use with a thinner wool pad? I assume it would be much firmer and more supportive than my current memory foam which is probably 2 lb and canoeing.

Sorry if I am asking questions that have been answered, I  have spent hours on this forum and am just as confused as I was before lol

Thank you

A softer latex topper could very well feel as soft as memory foam for you depending on how far you sank in. You are probably sinking right through the memory foam and feeling the firm mattress underneath. The ability of latex to relieve pressure is similar to memory foam but the difference in support is much larger. You would tend to "hammock" much less with softer latex since it will "stop the sinking" and "push back" more than memory foam. Even poly will do the same although usually to a lesser extent than latex.

In my personal experience (and everyone is different here) I tend to like sleeping on wool as it is breathable and I believe it is a healthy sleep surface. The tradeoff is that it may "firm up" whatever soft layer is underneath it (it compresses and doesn't have the elasticity of most foams) and by itself does not form a "conforming cradle" and relieve pressure issues. There is also a fairly big difference in different wool toppers in terms of how much wool is in them and how "compressed" and/or firm they may become with use. A lot of people really like it over a layer of memory foam to help offset the heat. It would also be good over latex but not as necessary for heat reasons as latex is cooler than memory foam. The Dormier has been quite popular on this forum because it is thinner and seems to be a little more flexible according to those who have used both this and the Natura. The natura is also popular although they make several which are all different in terms of how much wool they use. Budgy is very knowledgeable on Natura products (and many others) as he is familiar with pretty much all of them and how they compare to other brands and the dormier as well. Sandman also has a lot of personal experience in using different memory foams in different layering schemes.

The "coolest" mattress of them all is one that has no foam at all such as some of the higher end mattresses that use natural cotton/wool/horsehair/silk etc stuffing materials over innersprings. All foams are a "little" hotter than these materials since you sink into them more and they are not quite as breathable as natural fibers but for most people that have "heat issues" it is related to memory foam.

There is no way to predict exactly how you will react to different thicknesses and ILD's (or density in the case of memory foam) without having personal experience from laying on mattresses with a known construction as a reference point. This is especially true if you are considering a material that you have never or rarely slept on before. The variations beween weight distribution and personal preference is so wide that only your own personal experiences that come from laying on mattresses where you know the ILD and thickness of the top 2-4" can really help in "narrowing down" the "best" thickness and the "best softness" for you.

In very general terms (using "average" preferences if there is such a thing) I would use the firmest and thinnest layer that your hips are comfortable with. This could very well be in the range of 20 ILD or so and about 3" (similar to the Rejuvenate soft body pillow) but again I have to stress than your experience is more important than any theory I may have.

Sleep warehouse is a good source for toppers as they have high quality Dunlop Latex (latex green) and also quality memory foam (Foamex) and good quality poly (also Foamex) but they don't carry Talalay if your choice is in that direction. It always pays as well once you decide exactly what you plan to order to compare prices between the same or similar materials from 2 or 3 places that are known to give good value.

Phoenix

  I found your thread on talalay vendor links for 3" and am now leaning that way.  I am making progress, and now have to look up the wool toppers here.

Would this be unwise to get?

http://www.naturaworld.com/topper-classic

It is not machine washable but has double the wool content as the mattress protector. Would I be better off getting a quilted pad that can be tossed in the washer?

We are on a very similar quest.  I had a 3" layer of 4 lb. memory foam over a 40 ILD x 5.5" latex core.  Being about 235 lbs, I also am a side sleeper.  The memory foam was comfortable at first but after two years it no longer has any support as my shoulders are sore in the mornings.  I could have just replaced the memory foam but it was way too hot for me.  I tried to replace it with this http://mattresses.net/3-inch-latex-mattress-topper.html, but found the Dunlop latex too firm for my shoulders to get comfortable.  The great part was that it was so much cooler to sleep on than memory foam, I couldn't believe it!  I've been reading here for a while and think for me the talalay latex is the way to go and now considering this one, http://mattresses.net/3-inch-rejuvenite-talalay-latex-mattress-topper.html.  The one that Phoenix has suggested also looks like a good deal which includes shipping and appears they allow returns.   For my situation I'm just not sure if 19 ILD is soft enough or if I need something in the 14 ILD range.  I have not found anyone locally with this in inventory to test out.  I just wanted to point out that the latex really is a lot cooler to sleep on and if you can tolerate a higher density, the zoned dunlop is a good deal also.

Good Luck

With your mattress, I would be looking for a foam that would allow for cradling and pressure relief, not wool at all. While wool may feel soft initially, it does not form a cradle and as it compresses it's ability to cradle and relieve pressure becomes even less. This is different than mattresses that use tufting to keep the wool "plumped up" in the mattress construction but even here they are not as inherantly pressure relieving as a material that will form a cradle and distribute weight. Once you have found the answer to pressure relief then I would consider adding a thin layer of wool on top to see if the pressure relief remains. In another thread, Leo has just completely removed her wool because even though it was thin and loose, it prevented the underlying 4" of soft latex from doing it's job well enough.

Cowboy,

19 ILD is pretty soft and I would suspect at your weight may be a little better than 14 but personal experience always trumps theory. Where do you live and I'll see if there is anything in my list that could give you some decent "field testing".

General,

The sleep warehouse latex green Dunlop is a prime example of how a small error in a websites listing could cause major long lasting problems. They have their soft latex green Dunlop topper listed as 16-18 ILD. This is not the case. It is around 30 and possibly higher. The mistake originates on the latex green website because they are using KGF which means Kilograms of force. A kilogram is about 2.2 lbs so 16 kg would be over 35 ILD (ILD is measured in lbs). Some of the European and Asian websites also use a larger compression percentage (ILD compresses a material 25%) so this may not be directly "translateable" but it would be much higher than an ILD equivalent.

This could very easily cause someone to buy it on the assumption that it was "soft" and roughly equivalent to 16-18 talalay or even 24 ILD talalay (it would be much firmer than both) and when it wasn't they would come to believe that there is "no such thing" as latex that is soft enough for them and start an "endless round" of testing materials based on an incorrect assumption.

Another question, My old memory foam came from overstock .. the one I assume is around a 2 lb above .. how does that compare in firmness to the rejuvenite 19 ILD talalay latex . Is the latex maybe twice as firm?  I am thinking now the 19 latex is the one for me or would the more firm version be better. Do you know of any field testing places  in central connecticut?

Again TYVM for all the help I really appreciate it and ty cowboy

How soft something feels is often a function of how well they conform to your body shape and distribute pressure and memory foam and latex do this in different ways. Memory foam does this by turning into a "liquid like" state with heat and pressure and latex does this through "point elasticity" (the ability of a very small area to compress without affecting the surrounding area). Soft and very soft latex is very similar to memory foam in it's ability to "form a cradle" and feel soft. Some say latex is better ... some say memory foam is better. It would depend on the person, the ILD of the latex, and the chemicals used in the specific type of memory foam in it's manufacture. If memory foam is over a firmer layer and someone sinks through it over the course of the night as it heats up, then it will even feel much firmer than soft latex as they would be feeling the "support layers" under the memory foam. Like the difference between honey and water, denser memory foam doesn't always feel firmer than less dense and can even feel softer.

Will look for outlets in Central Conneticut and post them here as a PS but I know there are a few as Conneticut is where LI is situated.

Phoenix

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Memory-Foam-3-inch-Mattress-Topper/884135/product.html

http://www.thecleanbedroom.com/Showrooms.htm Retailer. Have a wide range of latex mattresses including layered make your own versions that would be a good testing ground.

http://www.allyouneedforsleep.com/index.htm Retailer. Carry Restopedic mattresses which are great value and would also be good testing grounds

http://www.manta.com/c/mmjfn7g/restopedic-inc Manufacturer. These are the actual manufacturer of Restopedic and sell factory direct. Don't have a website but they do have great value. Was impressed when I talked with them.

http://www.norwalkmattress.com/ Manufacturer. Also manufactures a range of latex mattresses

http://www.columbiamattressuph.com/findcmu.html Manufacturer. Their website says they have latex but I don't know any details about whether they make all latex or not.

http://www.comfortss.com/location.html Manufacturer. Makes a range of latex mattresses.

http://www.mybobs.com/locations/ Retailer/manufacturer? Focuses on memory foam but including them for the sake of completeness in case someone else looking for memory foam sees this list.

http://www.customsleepdesign.com/ Manufacturer. Makes custom layered and zoned latex mattresses using an approach that I believe is very accurate. Was also impressed when I talked with him and he is a former VP of latex international.

All of the latex manufacturers in this list may very well sell you a topper at a very good price should you need one. They would certainly provide excellent testing grounds. Conneticut doesn't have as many manufacturers as other states but they are among the best.

If there are stores like Sleepy's near you, then the Pure Latex Bliss line of mattresses would also be excellent testing grounds. They are a "subsidiary" of Latex International and while they are more than the manufacturers listed here, their mattresses and toppers do give you a chance to test out different comfort layers and thicknesses.

Phoenix

PS: based on the overstock description it is probably chinese memory foam. They say "rated at" 4 lb which usually means absolutely nothing and usually means it actually isn't 4lb. Without knowing who manufactures the memory foam there is no way to tell how it will "act" in actual use or what it really is. The 2 year warranty also indicates that it is probably "lesser" memory foam as well.

According to the link cowboy gave the video on the rejuvenite that the seller has says that they are manufactured by international latex in their connecticut factory under the rejuvenite name.

Phoenix

  I am still leaning toward the soft  I think at 19 ild with the rejuvenite since I am a side sleeper

This site claims the ild in the 20's is better ?  http://www.plushbeds.com/latexmattress.html

I think I'll have to go try the latex bliss again.

Here is a general idea of some of their mattress constructions with and without a 2" topper http://www.mattresssave.com/index.php?mattress/shop/brand/6

The 28 ILD and the 19 ILD would probably feel quite noticeably different on a firm mattress but testing it on something "soft" may distort the results of what you are feeling. I would test them on as firm a mattress as I could (like yours) and make sure you know how thick the version you are testing is as 2" and 3" could also make a difference.

My answer to anyone who makes those kind of "definitive statements" about soft and firm is always ... for who? It's too personal IMO to make blanket judgements about ILD or what is "best". There really isn't any difference in feel between 20 - 22 and 19 ILD anyway and they seem to think that "21" is OK lol.

Phoenix

Place today had a nutritional and a sorrento and I think a nature model. I thought the 3 inch topper on the nutritional was comfortable.

  I didn't think of moving the topper to a firm bed there. I will  have to go back and try that.

Is the latex bliss topper about a 14 or 19 ild?

Phoenix

PS: you can see from the latex bliss constructions (softer over soft, thin firmer layers over soft, and different thicknesses of layers) how sophisticated their understanding of latex and layering is. This is not surprising since their "parent" company makes it. I believe it's an attempt to "show the industry" how to use latex "more correctly" and while they are more expensive than "doing it yourself" or other options (they don't want to "cut the throat" of smaller or even larger manufacturers who already understand what they do and buy their latex), it is why I believe they are "among the best" of the "national brands". With their different toppers and the different thicknesses and ILD's of their different models, they are much closer to a "make your own" approach than most (if you take only their 4 basic models and the 2 toppers, there are 12 different variations of construction). I also believe it is partly an effort to show the industry the value of using very soft latex instead of the cheap soft poly that most mattresses (including most extra firm ones) have in the very top of their construction. It's a very smart strategy IMO. They win if other major manufacturers don't copy them (they sell more Latex Bliss) and also if they do copy them (they sell more latex).

The info on Latex Bliss mattresses is very interesting, so I went out to look at their site (unfortunately it doesn't look like they are for sale in Washington?). Anyway, the thing I wanted to ask about is their "stabilization" layer. Each of their beds seem to have 1" of poly foam at the bottom, for stabilization. Do you know why they do this and what it really does? Thanks...

Steve

You can spend a lot of money very quickly once you get experimenting.

BTW there were some great deals on MF over Xmas at stores like Kohls and Bon Ton, and I think Kohls still has one running through the new years weekend.  We picked up a made-in-US    2" MF topper for $70 that normally sells for $220.

There is a lot of good information about the Pure Latex Bliss on youtube and at their blissipedia site ... but unfortunately it doesn't have any info about why they use the "stabilization layer". I believe it is to help counteract the "swaying" or "jiggly" feeling some people feel with thicker Talalay mattresses as it is less dense than Dunlop and can have more of a tendency to move a little more from "side to side" especially with a body laying on top of it. A very firm and stiff layer underneath the mattress could help counteract this and this would make sense to me. I would think it would have to be glued to the core to be most effective. A secondary benefit could be to protect the Talalay although I don't think this would have been as important in their thinking.

The only place I know of that sells them in WA is http://www.higginsonsflooringandsleepshop.com/contactus.html which is quite a ways away.

Hellbed,

Unfortunately, most of the soft latex being sold is around 20 ILD or more and this would feel much firmer than memory foam which is usually around 12-15. Of course memory foam also melts but it's usually the depth of cradling and pressure distribution that contributes to a "feeling of softness" rather than the pushback. I think a 14 ILD latex could feel similar in terms of softness except it wouldn't have the tendency of memory foam to allow certain parts to "sink too far". It will be interesting to see what happens as more 14 ILD toppers with stretchy covers "hit the market" to see how they compare with memory foam. Some of the testing that has been done in the "pressure relief" patents indicate it is slightly better even than memory foam in certain combinations (pressure relief inlays). Firmer memory foam also can feel quite hard, at least until it melts. Poly ... especially HR poly aslo has pushback (and in some cases even more than latex) and yet can feel very soft as well in the "super soft" ILD's (around 10 in some cases) or in the convoluted which "acts" softer than the ILD of the material that it was fabricated from.

Phoenix

Why is there Foam on the Bottom of a Latex Bed?

This is a great question. The answer is simple and it has to do with manufacturing the mattress.

Imagine a 200-pound sneaker that was six feet wide and six feet long. Now imagine moving that around from left to right or forwards and backwards on your dining room table. That would seem difficult right? Why? Because rubber naturally has a gripping surface. That is why they use it to grip in many applications; Tires, Sneaker soles, crutch and cane tips.

Rubber is an amazing high quality material that is not only heavy but also very difficult to move. When we build a bed, we have to move it a lot. To make it moveable, we added one inch of poly to the bottom of all of our constructions. Simply put, you can slide poly around with rubber on top of it, but you can’t move rubber by itself easily.

There is one more reason, the fire retardant cover adheres better to the poly on the bottom of the bed than it would latex. 

-------

So no reason those of us building our own mattresses should do the same :-)

Phoenix

I ended up ordering a 3" topper  from www.customsleepdesign.com at the beginning of January. I ordered a 3 inch 19ild so we shall see. I do hope it comes before shoulder surgery in a couple of weeks.

  I had called International Latex and that place was referred to as a dealer of their toppers also, they seemed knowledgable on the phone and very helpful.

Update 2/10  .... It has been a while but it is finally shipping YAY

I own one, and it is 1-5/8" Latex with a very nice feeling cover.  I just wanted to point out that, evidently, the 2" is including the cover thickness.  I didn't need the cover and was choosing between (both 14ILD) the PLB 2" Queen Topper at STLBeds for $299, and the 2" Queen from SLAB at $314.  I figured I'll save $15 and get a "free" cover by going with the PLB Topper.  But now I realize it wasn't as good of a deal as I thought due to the thickness difference (which can create some challenges when customizing).  However, we do love the topper.  I even doubled it over for my wife to sleep on 3-1/4" of 14ILD and she loved it (she is 5'6" and 110lbs).  But, unfortunately for her, after two nights, I had to take my side back.

Gary

   I was so excited to get it too but mistakes happen and as long as they are made right it's all good.