MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight. I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside! What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece! ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted... (By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww! So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
You might be right, Leo, about a softer latex being too soft. But it is one thing I've never tried so I feel I owe it to myself to try it. I would only use 1 or 1½ ", no more. How thick is your soft latex? Wanna sell it? I know what you mean about thinking you have it right and then finding a month or so down the road that it begins to hurt. I have had that happen several times. One general rule I am finding (this works for ME, and I guess it only applies to those who feel the need for Springs under them) is that if I put too much foam on top of my springs, it does not work at all. I have to access the flexibility of the springs and if I put too much foam I lose that. It could be that some day I may try pocket coils again if I can find someone who makes a good one for not too much money, or if I could find a very SLIGHTLY used one to buy, to try. Two nights ago, just for an experiment I added another inch of HR foam to the mix, so I had 2" of HR foam instead of one inch under my 3/4" of latex and 1" of Venus foam. It was just too much foam, it killed my back! I then took the extra 1" of HR foam layer out , and added my wool mattress cover, and it was much better. But now it seems to lack just a LITTLE more softness. I am going to try an old crappy 3/4" memory foam layer or even a 3/4"PU layer, just to add a little more softness and see if that helps. But it seems that for me, anything more than 1" of medium firm or firmer foam is just too much. 1" seems to be the right amount, followed by some softer foams as "toppers".* *However, it COULD be that if I had latex instead of HR foam, I could go with a little more of it...? I'd also like to try various latex ILD's and types (such as Dunlop) but I don't have them and hate to spend the $ right now. This message was modified Sep 18, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
In reply to your last posting....you are correct that too much foam will negate the springs...I think you have found the magical number for inches of layering over the springs...but now just need to get the layers correct. Too much foam will cause the low backache, IME. It is such a trick to get it right for the shoulders and hips without losing the support. For me, the support is IN the hip area, because that is what causes the low back ache. If it is too soft, then my hips get too much lower than my body and my low back tries to lift it up all night. Oddly enough, mattresses that address the lumbar region always seem to offer support at the low back, not the butt. OTOH, the hip/butt area also has to be soft enough to be comfortable. A real conundrum. In my bed, there are inches of cotton batting over the springs(offset coils) and then 4" of foam on top of that. Must be pretty high quality polyfoam because it took forever to break it in. Added a polyfill topper and it is good. IME, I don't like the feel of the pocket coils I've slept on (last bed had them)as much as the offset coils. They are typically thinner wire and for me, seemed to sink without pushing back up as much as the offset. But again, just my opinion. Hope this helps. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Jim, thanks for all the information, it is really helping me quite a bit. So where did you find your Englander mattress? I went around to a few stores here this weekend, and only a couple of them had Englander mattresses. The lowest spring gauge i could find was 12-3/4. What I want is the cheapest Englander mattress I can find with 12.5 gauge coil (cal-king size). I'm guessing i can find something for under $800. Then I will add the cuddle-topper from Costco. Then i will wait a few weeks or months like yourself, and if I can back pain or discomfort, I will start the mattress surgery. i am completely convinced that the expensive mattresses are a scam. They might be slightly better, but nothing to justify the cost. And after seeing the surgery pictures, there's no rocket science to these things. it's clear that the mattress industry gets by because of a purposeful lack of information to customers. It is very simply springs and foam, covered by fancy stitching. Here's another example. My parents are more well to do than I am. My mom bought a cal-king Chattam & Wells mattress. Sometimes, my mom is not the most rational person in the world, but she's pretty good when it comes to shopping. However, she's the type where she will not admit that the bed is uncomfortable if she spent $4000 on it because that would mean she was wrong about something. So there's a lot of psychology involved with these expensive mattresses, and the companies know it. Somewhere in this thread, it was said that 78% of people who bought an expensive mattress were highly satisfied or something. I call BS to that. I think, sure, the mattress might be a little better, but i think there's a lot of psychology involved there because the people do not want to admit that their expensive investment sucks. I think those statistics are highly unreliable. now, back to my mom's mattress...before I even bought my cal-king mattress, i slept on it for a few nights. My back hurt after anything more than 7 hours rest. Now, I have never had back pain in my life! Up to that time, I had been sleeping in a little twin bed (firm, Ethan Allen) my whole life, which is silly because I'm 6'3" and don't even really fit in it. So, that made me wonder. I looked at the mattress and I could see a noticeable sag, not that bad though. It was a very plush pillowtop mattress, so of course there was going to be sag. The sag makes my back hurt, I'm sure of it. So later, my dad, who had been sleeping on another full-size pillowtop (cheaper brand), starting having his back hurt because of it. My dad has at least some history of back problems, and he's older, so it obviously affects him more. He told me that it was so bad sometimes that he couldn't even walk for half the day. So he started sleeping on the ground, which was better for him (although not a great, by any means). I told him to try the old firm twin I used. he tried it and said it was better than the ground, but not great. Then, he went back to the cal-king expensive mattress, and he said that's been the best so far, although not awesome. So, according to my dad, the expensive mattress was the best. However!! I don't get much out of the situation, because all the beds my dad tried (except for my old twin) were these very plush pillowtops. I think pillowtops are horrible because you never know where the sag is coming from; the plush or the springs? And after seeing the mattress surgery pictures, I can't be sure of anything now. but Jim is right, there needs to be something done about the mattress industry. I've never seen such little information about products I've tried to research. The entire industry can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, or at least have a huge makeover. They are messing with our minds. They know it's such a huge item physically that there is stres involved in returning/exchanging it. They also know that foams and springs break down slowly enough where several weeks of comfort can pass before any discomfort occurs. Their 10-year warranties mean nothing, because it has to do with only materials and defects...but since nobody knows what the materials are, all the power is in the hands of the manufacturers, so warranties don't mean a thing. And the warranty is void if you open the mattress up. They put all that nice stitching around the mattrress to make it look good, and that's all just for looks. I hate this mattress industry so much. So that's why my plan is this, based on Jim's information and my experiences: --Buy a Cal-King mattress with 12.5 gauge springs for as cheap as possible (do I care about spring count?). NO PILLOWTOP OR PLUSH (although this is very hard to find). --I'll sleep on it for a while. --Once it starts causing discomfort, it's mattress surgery time. --Experiment with my foam layers, use a cuddle-topper from Costco to cover up the damage. Total shouldn't cost me more than $1000. And I bet the mattress will be better than any expenisve store mattress. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
IF I end up buying new springs I may try your "offset" type. The reason I went with the Englander was because I had slept on them once and liked them. And so far they do seem fine. One thing I am noticing (I think) is that the springs are getting softer and more comfortable already (only a month or so). It's hard to tell for sure because I also have changed the foam on top several times. Here is what is working for me now: 1" of HR foam on the bottom - NOT zoned; all Medium ILD. 1" of Venus Memory foam on top of the HR 3/4" of latex probably 20-28ILD, not sure; probably Talalay 1-2" of a wool mattress cover on top of all that. This last step has made a big difference for me. Using the wool instead of the Cuddlebed is just working better. It was a very expensive wool cover that I bought on sale years ago at Flobeds. It's from St. John's Woolen and I think we paid around $200 for the King but now they're closer to $350. I think it may have been advertised as 2 - 2.5" thick but when you lay on it it goes down to like ½. However it makes everything much cooler in summer (and from my previous use, also warmer in winter). Also it seems to "protect" me a bit from the feel of the latex which isn't always a good feeling, to me. And I have found that using memory foam as a lower layer works better for me, than having it near or on the top. Since I bought the King wool pad, and then switched to 2 twins instead of a King, we had not really used the wool for years. So finally I took the plunge and got out the scissors and cut it in half. Now I am using it with one side open but soon will pay someone to sew it up for me. I was afraid cutting it would somehow ruin it, but it was no problem at all. |
Kait, you are the main person who convinced me to try springs, as I recall - ceratinly one of them - so thank you for that! I'm waking up much more rested and with less pain than I have since my last car accident 13 months ago.
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
This message was modified Sep 22, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Jim; Glad the springs are helping. There is just a different feel of support with them than with plain foam. I was also thinking that people who pay big bucks for a product typically don't complain about it much, because in so many people's minds, you get more if you pay more. But what you pay for something often has no relevance to how it will perform or last!!! I believe in getting the most for the least possible, BUT won't accept crap. In this economy it is so important to get value for your hard earned money, waste needs to be a thing of the past. Spending thousands of dollars, multiple times, on beds that don't perform and actually cause chronic back pain is just unacceptable. I met a nice woman who lived across from my parent' s old house when we were moving my mom out. She had crippling, chronic back pain. Slept on a Tempurpedic mattress. I cringed. But, because those things cost so much money, and there is so much hype surrounding them, she didn't think that the mattress could POSSIBLY be part of her problem. I did try to tell her, but to no avail. Actually, my topper is not actually a Cuddlebed...it is a mattress topper that is a down-like poly-fill mat, several inches thick. No foam in it. It is washable and fluffs pretty nicely but it does tend to flatten out in my problem area. So I have to fluff it up every couple of weeks or so. I don't have a Costco membership...there isn't enough that I'd save money on to justify the purchase of the card(toldja I was cheap!). The offset coils are just a bit different than the Bonnell. The tops of the coils stick up a bit, and give a bit of a different feel. I think it depends on how the wires are attached. I have had long discussions with Bill about this, but still as clear as mud. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
"-Well, as a hard core believer in DIY mattress surgery, I agree. I hope it works out for you. The more people that do this, the more common it will become, and the more common it becomes, the less the mattress companies can get away with selling junky foam hidden inside expensive mattresses. That's the ultimate consumer's revenge against them. And if the springs are well made you should be able to keep your mattress going for 10-20 years by just replacing the foam. Also, the Firms are cheaper than the pillowtops, so that's less of an expense for you and less profit to the company!" It is terrible how much awful garbage is inside your average mattress. I am glad I got a whole latex for me and my wife but not yet sure whats the best topper. But in any case the key is to make sure the core is solid. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Kait, I agree about the springs. It's a better feel, to me. I actually had the same problem, re not wanting to admit it was my mattress: The year or so I spent on pure foam minus-springs, my back was always hurting and my wife kept saying "You need springs!" I kept saying, "No! There is nothing wrong with foam! Foam gives good support when it's good foam!" So I resisted because I was somehow mentally invested in the "idea" of pure foam. What kills me though is how people will complain to me about their mattress, and I tell them that they could easily cut it open and replace the foam like I have done, and I'm willing to help them ... but they won't do it! For some reason the idea of cutting open a mattress seems scary to them! Even an old one that is hurting their back and they want to buy a new one... I don't get it. I don't have a CostCo Membership either, for exactly the same reason. It's just the wife and I and we don't get much benefit from it. We bought the Sealy at CostCo years ago. So, when I went to their web site, because I had ordered from them once, they still allowed me to order the Cuddlebed even though my membership had expired years before. Back to the Springs thing: for me, now it's like "I've seen the light!" I am tempted to tell anyone who's having trouble getting their foam right, that maybe they need springs! But it seems to be true that many people do love their foam mattresses, especially when it's pure latex. So, I guess some of us need springs and some don't. Also I tried the Sealy springs for a long time with my own foam on top of them, and those springs just never felt right to me. They're the type that are all kind of connected together with wires, I forget what they're called... My wife is still sleeping on hers and is happy enough with them, but I never liked them. I'm liking my Englander a lot. I am SO hoping the feel of it doesn't change in a week or a month or 6 months.... This message was modified Sep 25, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
I'm all ears and eyes....where can I see this surgery? Have a beautiful Chattam & Well that lasted for 6 1/2 years and just developed body impression that sent my hubby's back into shooting nerve problem, so he's on floor for 5 weeks now, but no problem now that he's out of the bed. We are researching $3K latex beds but nothing around to try near us so have to order blind online BUT I told hubby that I wish I could cut our C&W open and get rid of the poly foam in there that has impressed & replace it with a foambymail latex layer....he said I was crazy... Then I read this thread and I'm lol..... I need to see a photo to be sure I cut properly as I'm doing this when he's not home...heh heh.....and he won't know until too late. We didn't get a pillowtop or eurotop, so maybe I won't have to deal with too much poly quilting onto the cover, but it does have something quilted on :( I need to know where to cut - I want to save the top if I can & then hide the damage with the mattress cover after I attempt to sew it back on. King will take forever to sew 3 sides back on but I'll end up saving about $3k if it works out. So, photos please when you can! Tks |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Choose All and that will show you every post in the thread. This forum has a somewhat archaic and unique "feature" which allows you to view just the some of the threads at one time, usually the first and the last few, but not the rest. To see all you have to choose All or View as Outline which will then show you a list of all the threads within a topic. If you choose All you will see all the photos of the mattress surgery. As to "if it works out", if your springs are not shot (and they probably are not) it WILL work out! As to where to cut, see the thread about that here in this forum and also see my photos above. Good luck. Please take photos and post them when you cut, show us the CR*P inside your S brand mattress! Show us the springs, show us the foam... One thing the S brands do right is that most of the springs do last quite a long time unless you buy individual coils. Let us know how it goes. If you need any specific advice post your question here and I'll see it, or start a new topic and I'll see that. My mail box isn't the best place, as I don't always check it. |
Hey catlover, if you go to the top post in this thread (and any thread here) and look underneath it you will see: