Mattress Forum

This evening I went to Sleepy’s, Bloomingdales, and Macys all in NYC, Manhattan (I live in Brooklyn). None of these stores had the ‘J’ level Stearns & Foster in Ultra Firm. The ‘J’ level is in S&F’s Luxury line, not their higher end coil-within-a-coil Estate line.

Macys had two mattresses that felt very good, both from their Macys branded Hotel Collection (made by S&F and variations on their Estate coil-within-a-coil series): the Classic Tight Top Ultra Firm, and Classic Tight Top Super Ultra Firm. The Super Ultra Firm may have even been a bit too hard, but a 2” topper would more than likely make it quite comfortable. These were about $1,500 delivered, mattress only (I have a platform bed). Nice, comfy, and too expensive. A topper would only make it moreso:

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=421041&CategoryID=43092

I tried the S&F Estate line Ultra Firm for about $1,300+ delivered w/taxes. Felt hard, but a topper might make it very comfortable. Again, too expensive. 

Macys also had a Sealy Posturepedic Ivory Mist Tight Top Firm, which felt firm, not a perfect mattress, but decent: $600 delivered.

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=453350&PseudoCat=se-xx-xx-xx.esn_results

On thing I recognize is how challenging is to make objective judgments on comfort by just laying on a mattress in the store. My sense is that it’s going to take 8hrs, in each position (back, side, stomach) to really know the effect a mattress has on the body. But I’m learning.

I applaud those who are taking their comfort into their own hands and tailoring their mattresses, and also those performing mattress surgery. Surgery however seems too severe a measure on a brand new $1K mattress.

I’ve been an active climber for almost 20 years. I try to spend several continuous months a year living outside in the mountains and desert, sleeping under the stars. This means sleeping on a couple of thin closed cell camping pads and a sleeping bag. For years my shoulders have had a torn cartilage injury and they can still be sensitive if sleeping on very hard ground on my side. Nonetheless, in the outdoors you rough it a bit and make  do, sometimes I’ll place some clothing under my sleeping bag to add to the padding.

One season not far back, a friend alerted me to a very rare find: a brand new, large, solid sheet of either 3” or 2.5” thick open cell foam, it was either full or queen size, leaning against a dumpster. I do not know the name for it, but it’s the common, regular, dull yellowish foam used everywhere (even for egg crate packaging). The foam was as new, resilient, fresh. Outdoors folks will often use this foam in a van or pickup truck as a mattress. I took it back to my sleeping area, which was solid rock. Actually, the rock sloped down a little (!) but I folded the sheet of foam in half placing the thick bend on the down-sloping side so the sleeping surface remained level. Effectively, it made a 5” – 6” solid foam mattress on top of solid rock. It was amazed: it was among the most comfortable ‘beds’ I’ve ever slept on! Recall, I’m about 5’11” @ 135lbs, very slender but also very muscular. It was supportive and comfortable, even cushy. In the outdoors, especially when traveling light, one always expects to sacrifice some comfort, but this was really a supremely comfy setup. No back pain in the morning that I can recall.

Based on this, I can easily understand how 2”- 4” of high quality topper foam, over whatever suitable foundation, can make for a totally comfortable supportive bed. I must profess that I’m not certain if I’ve ever felt latex foam. Of course, I’ve been read many accounts claiming it to be a superior product for both mattresses and toppers, and I’m curious to see what the hoopla is all about. On the other hand, a few years back a girlfriend had a memory foam mattress topper and I disliked it … it felt too ‘gummy’ and too ‘slow’.

Is there a source to test or view latex toppers and/or foam in NYC? I'd like to check into this.

******

Back to my return/exchange dilemma. Sears.com is difficult to get a clear answer from customer service. Every operator I call gives me a different policy. I do not want to have to eat the $200 to return this, but this mattress is too soft for me. I have less than 24 hrs to make a decision how to proceed. Btw, I do not have a vehicle here in NYC. WIth enough notice and persuasion, I might be able to get a friend in NJ to help me out with his pickup. 

Any ideas, please keep them coming. 

Thanks so much for the ideas.

Shovel you have come at the problem in a very flexible and efficient manner. On your own mattress, are you doing it as a surgery or simply adding toppers?

One thing I see often mentioned is coil count. I understand that gauge, metal, and construction combine to resulting in the spring system's support, but all things being equal, is a higher coil count from a manufacturer more desirable? I notice the Serta mattress you reference has a relatively low coil count.

Some mattresses I tested felt like laying in the back of a moving pickup truck or laying on a trampoline, I'm exaggerating of course, but the nature of the mattresses movement had a resemblance. I suppose that is the nature of intertwined coils, it feels a bit funky to me. The feeling of isolation and form fitting has a lavish effect and is one of the features that drew me to the S&F. I may be a little loathe to surrender that. I'll try to search on lower back pain and coil design.  

Your topper strategy is very well though out and clever method of testing without expensive irreversible commitment. I wish you well on your PU/HD36 trial. As I mentioned up thread, I slept for about four months on a block of open cell PU foam of some common variety and it did the job wonderfully. Come to think of it, the other really good sleep in the last few years was in a rather nice hotel near an airport on a layover, I can't recall the hotel chain but the mattress was pure heaven and no back pain in the morning ... and I'm usually reluctant with hotel beds due to fears of saggyness or softness.

I'm feeling very much time pressured as I believe I have to make a decision today, or get stuck with this mattress. I don't feel as if I have it quite figured out just yet. The Sears store is also a very long commute to the other side of the city, numerous transfers subways/buses (I'll keep the Home Depot rental in mind TC, I remember seeing those vehicles parked at the store). 

Last night latest try - poly foams 1 inch soft- 1 inch hard.  was a disaster.... waaaaaayyyyy too hard. I got up at 4 am and started playing musical toppers.  I should disclaimer my advice as coming from Thomas Edison.... just before he discovered the electric light!  It was said that after his 10,000 failure, he was asked "you have failed 10,000 times... don't you think you should give up?"  He replied" I haven't failed 10,000 times, I am getting closer, because I have eliminated one more way it can't be done!"

At 4 AM I resorted to an earlier attempt that was OK:   1 inch of 4 lb eco friendly memory foam from overstock.com (laugh) which is pretty good mem foam for cheap, but laughable streaky green!  Under that was 1 inch of 20 ILD latex.  I have been experimenting with a section of firmer foam on the bottom layer from the lumbar region to feet, (1 inch for example) for more support there, because I read that mattress makers do that to support the greater weight  "zoning".  Last night it was the 1 inch of latex (firmer than mem foam)  from lumbar to feet on the bottom and from lumbar up to head softer memory foam, then a complete layer of 1 inch of memory foam.  I believe that will be the ultimate solution, but not there yet.

I have not resorted to surgery.  I hate to destroy what could be the wrong matttress so I can't sell on craigslist for even $100-200.

I am now questioning the wisdom (for me at least) of the latest mattress (my "base") being continuouls linked coil.  The last time I slept "pretty well" was on a 12 year old lower to middle range simmons beautyrest.  I have not slept on anything but a beautyrest since 1973... until my mattress nightmare started 5 years ago to accommodate my Princess with a firmer mattress.. and the first 5 or six we tried were BR.   The beautyrest has their industry changing pocketed coil which was the industry standard for accomodating spine curvature in an inner spring mattress.  Then others found ways around the patent, and foams arrived.  Foams can be more mechanically tied together by cell structure than the independent coils.  See:  bowling ball.   Maybe the extra firm linked Serta is too hard to accommodate without a ton of expensive latex, and I have found that to me it feels to jelly like unstable when I am perced on top.  So SCRATCH MY SUGGESTION TO BUY A LINKED SPRING MATTRESS WITHOUT A BUNCH MORE IN STORE RESEARCH BY YOU.

Coil number, design, and gauge are a good question.  The larger the gauge number, the smaller the diameter the wire.  The smaller the coil diameter, the small the footprint it can leave on your body, so all else equal, more is better.  Simmons has more smaller coils, but supposedly from many posts they are not tempered. (Simmons typically 15 ga down to 13 ga. ) To an engineer.. that means:  not a spring!  On the other hand, the comfort layer if poly foam which was heavily used up until perhaps the last 10 years when mem foam and latex came invogue.    The upstart of the separate vs linked, tempered vs untempered issue is that Simmons has reputation for softer accommodation and caving in earlier than Sealy.  Sealy rates 6% higher on a website that has amalgamated all the net ratings of matress types.   66% pos for Sealy, 61% Simmons, 59% Serta, and memory foam 80%, latex 79%.  Sealey and Stearns (common ownership) use larger coils, stiffer gauge, fewer, and are tempered.  I think most of their models are linked springs.

Hotel mattresses.  I sleep better on most hotel mattresses... quite a few in my travels, and pursued thought of buying one either asking the owner which one (ought to buy the exact one!)   or a hotel mattress program.. they all have them.  If they didn't have a program, they couldn't tell me which one.. or the makers so obfuscated what was what by changing names and private labeling ... even in their hotel mattress program (read comments of failed attempts to do this by buyers) that I wasn't willing to throw another $1200 to 2000 at the problem.

Wanted to give you the update, and sorry I can't be of more immediate help.

Good luck, shovel99

Regarding tests:  I have spent hours lying on the mattress in the store.  Up to 2 hours at a time.  I even thought about asking for permission to sleep over!  Could you talk Macy's into that?

In the many hours of in store vs.. at home sleeping overnight, what felt fine... perfect etc. in the store ALWAYS was too firm by the time I got it home.  May be just me with "need firm for my bad back" in the back of my mind.  The problem is that I need form fitting for side, too, and that damn compromise is my problem.

First line of defense: talk sears into giving you more time, but if not, I would take it back and eat the restock fee.  At least get them to agree to credit it back of you change your mind and buy another sears mattress?

Good luck,

shovel99

I ended up giving this mattress to a friend who is heavier than I am(I only weigh 125# and am 5'6")and she got a couple of months out of it before it started to kill her back as well.  ( I had been reduced to sleeping the perimeter of the bed because the entire middle was horrible...it was a CA King and 4 nights/week  I have the entire bed to myself).  Looked good, sucked to sleep on.

If you like pocket coils, and need to get another S and F. do go up to the next level and get something with less P/U foam inside...it dies really quick.  I know this particular bed feels good in the store...,my mom wanted to buy one and I didn't let her.  She's going to Better Bed this week for her new bed. 

Please listen to me...save your back...find a friend with a truck and move the sucker yourself....just don't keep it!

Kait

I am about to call Sear.com again.

If I can exchange without a pickup/delivery fee and/or without a restocking fee, and also get a 30 day return policy on the replacement mattress, it may make sense to select another mattress at Sears and at least channel the funds, which would otherwise be lost, into that.

But, several factors influence this:  foremost is if I can select an appropriate mattress and its pricing at Sears is good. I had put off purchasing this mattress for a very very long time due to my finances. Unfortunately, I do not have a cushion of funds to lose while making wrong decisions.

I’m curious, if a consensus is that interconnected springs perform better for lower back pain, what ‘spring chassis’ are people going with? Is there a make/model that is modestly priced that has good springs and with a minimum of shoddy padding? I’m pretty much certain that I will not perform mattress surgery on a brand new mattress…any modifications would more than likely be by adding topper(s) to a too firm mattress (of course, if committed to the mattress and farther down the road it becomes unusable, then yeah I could see doing mattress surgery to replace the foam). At least that is how I see things now. I think I also need to be careful in overcompensating for the present soft mattress by buying an absolutely rock hard mattress. Yesterday, I found myself asking the salesmen to show me the firmest mattresses they sell; they are the only one I was interested in.

What about the firmer end of the Sealy Reserve line?

Unfortunately, if I return my S&F mattress to Sears, I lose $200 (approx. 25%) of my budget. It's looking rather grim. 

PS: regarding S&F reviews: I had read that S&F previously had made some poor foam choices in their mattresses and experienced an unusually high level of sagging and returns which damaged their reputation and that in 2009 they redesigned and spec’d their mattresses & foam. Possibly many of the negative reviews relate to the mattress’ redesign.

PSS: Shovel, sorry your back wasn’t pleased. LOL, I too asked a salesman if I could sleep overnight ; )

Good news. I spoke with Sears and they told me that they are going to treat this as a defective mattress. 

Therefore, whether I do an exchange for a different model or decide to return the mattress for a full refund, I will not be charged any pickup/delivery fees, or restocking fees. Of course, if I pick out a different mattress, I pay (or get credited) the difference in price,  but the original transaction is maintained, so that the 18 months at 0% financing on my purchase stays in effect. It took numerous calls and transfers to speak with a customer service rep who had the authority and responsibility to give me a definitive answer, but now that I have it, I think that's very fair policy from Sears. They also granted me a couple additional days (till Friday) to make up my mind as I'm at the 30 day warranty deadline today. Kudos to Sears' customer service.

Now that's taken care of, I really need to survey my options and arrive at a solution. 

So where do I resume my search? Do I look for a spring bed that is well constructed - and since all the modest priced major brand mattresses appear to be constructed with low grade foams - look for one with as little padding as possible and adjust comfort with topper(s)?

Perhaps go downward in mattress quality/price and use the money saved for the toppers?

Oh, the salesman in Bloomingdale's suggested I might like a horsehair mattress, but didn't know where I could shop for one.

Do I need to enroll in a PhD program?

I'm guessing all the foam mattresses will be beyond my budget.