Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery / new mattress
Aug 24, 2011 8:46 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.)

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(Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.)

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I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the current setup:
Two-year-old 9" high old-fashioned, two-sided (flippable), firm innerspring mattress (full size), on a wooden [correction: wood and steel] foundation; both still in very good shape.
On top of the mattress: 2" 32 ILD Talatech latex topper from SleepLikeABear.
On top of that: 1" Talatech latex topper, 24 ILD.
The 3" of latex are enclosed in a heavy-ish cotton/poly cover from FBM.

Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood).

(The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.)

So:

With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness.

When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.)

One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago.  But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out.

(If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.)

Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work?

Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32?

I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

Thanks!
-- Catherine

Edited to add:
In case it's useful, here's what I've tried before:

1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.)

2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.]

This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #19 Dec 29, 2011 1:31 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
DoreenA wrote:

 Putting a topper on a sagging mattress just means you just end up in a cushier sinkhole!

I know! I hate to think about what I've been doing to my back & my hip all these months that I've been fighting with the toppers! crying

Part of the problem is that the mattress doesn't show a big, deep body-impression. There's a sinkhole by morning, but no permanent huge crater that screams "time for mattress surgery!" So I really didn't think the mattress was the problem... until the last few mornings.

 

Hope you will update on your progress.

Yup, I will.

Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #20 Dec 30, 2011 11:14 AM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems.  Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery.  I found that was an issue for me.    You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top.   I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well).

Another issue is the fact that it is two sided.  I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say.

I also wonder about the coil system.  My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils.  It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count.  It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well.  You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery.  The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex.

Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #21 Dec 30, 2011 2:45 PM
Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Points: 93
Catherine wrote:

 

JasonRatky wrote:

You're not going to want to hear this idea, since you know the mattress itself, as-is, could not be among the confounding variables, but I went through exactly what you describe & then some, assuming there'd be some ultimate combination of foam I could add that would make it right.  It wasn't until I extracted my inersprings, leaving nothing between them & my latex, did all the layer swapping & buying/returning foams end.

 That junction between spring & foam is a huge potential weak spot.  Just like how having too much of anything between yourself & your top layer can rob latex of its conforming properties, inersprings can be hamstrung by their own foam & casing.  You still want the springs' action to transmit through & work with that of the foam's to some degree, and that never happened buried inside a mattress I was merely piling on top of.  If you were just down to the springs, assuming they're of sufficient coil type & count, I'd bet any of your layers would work.  Then it wouldn't feel so much like bottoming out, but flexing into & working with your springs.  It's just hard to abandon all the nice mattress pads & encasements, & even harder to cut into a mattress, but I've done it twice now, & am convinced a mattress' comfort layers must be entirely replaced, not just added to.

 

Actually, I'm now fairly sure that the mattress is one of the confounding variables.

If I take all the soft latex and the fiber bed off the mattress -- which I did -- and leave only the medium-ILD latex on there -- which I did -- and I still wake up in a sinkhole -- which I am -- then the mattress has to be the problem, right?

(I suppose it could be the latex, but I've got an inch of N3/27 ILD, bought a couple months ago, an inch of 32 ILD Talatech, bought recently, and an inch of 24 ILD Talatech, bought 2 years ago but still in good shape as far as I can tell. None of that should be cratering. I could try taking everything off and sleeping on just the mattress, to be sure, but that would be pretty uncomfortable. We'll see.)

Even after I put a thin piece of plywood between the box spring and the mattress -- across the hip zone -- and put a folded-up old mattress pad on top of that -- to boost that zone some more -- I am waking up in a sinkhole, and with a very sore lower back.

It's not a big enough sinkhole to activate the warranty, and during the day, I think the compressed foam (in the mattress) expands a bit, so the mattress looks relatively flat. There's not a giant body-impression in it. But I am clearly waking up in a sinkhole... which would certainly explain why none of my zoning attempts have been working. (D'oh!)

Methinks I shall be cutting a slit in the mattress top very soon, so I can peek at the innards and see what's going on in there.... At this point, I've got nothing to lose.



FIFY.

Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #22 Dec 30, 2011 4:50 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
sandman wrote:

There is not a lot of foam, but perhaps enough to cause problems.  Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well, if you end up doing surgery.  ...  You can try cutting it on 3 sides and leave it attached on one side, then replace the foam, and try it with and without the quilted top.   I ended up removing my whole top because it did cause problems for me (and it was hot as well).

I'm mid-surgery now. I've got the quilted cover cut on 3 sides, and I'm tempted to just go ahead and cut it off entirely. It doesn't have tons of foam quilted into it -- about an inch -- but it's squishy low-density stuff, so I'd think that it would have to be part of "the weakest link," along with the convoluted poly foam I've already taken out. And the quilted panel probably interferes a bit with the feeling of the latex. Decisions, decisions....

 

Another issue is the fact that it is two sided.  I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say.

I'm leaving the plywood and the folded-up old mattress pad between the foundation and the mattress, so that should help combat the compressed foam on what is now the bottom of the mattress.

 

I also wonder about the coil system.  My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils.  It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count.  It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well.  You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery.  The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex.

Can't see the coils, because of the fiber-pads, or insulator pads, whatever they're called, over them. (They're attached in some way, and I don't want to detach them.) So the coil count might remain a mystery. This is a full-size bed, though, not a queen, so even if it does have just 528 coils, I would think they'd last a while.

The mattress manufacturer has "Good," "Better," and "Best" product lines, and this mattress is in the "Better" line. Came with a 10-year warranty, I believe, so even with the foam giving out, those springs should -- theoretically -- last a few years, especially with me being on the light side.

[Edited to add: With just the coils and a sheet of latex, the mattress feels pretty firm and springy.]

I've got all the latex spread out in my bedroom, and am fiddling with zoning now. I will still need some zoning.

More later...

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #23 Dec 31, 2011 9:46 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
I wrote last night:

I will still need some zoning.

Or maybe not....

 

When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. (Portable long mirror propped up against the wall, and a handheld mirror used to see my spine reflected in the other mirror.) I'm really not seeing much of a difference with any of my various configurations. (One new element to play with: a 1" layer of the FBM 20 ILD, which actually feels more firm than my 32 ILD Talatech scrap from SLAB.)

Around 11 PM, I got fed up with all of this fiddling, after spending all afternoon and all evening on it, and finally just dispensed with all the zoning attempts. I didn't use or need zoning during my first year on the mattress, so... maybe I just thought I needed zoning recently, when what I actually needed was to get the PU foam out of the mattress? Damned if I know.

What I finally wound up sleeping on last night (top to bottom):
* the 1" layer of 14 ILD (with the pieces put back together to make a whole layer again)
* 1" of 24 ILD
* 1" of N3/27 ILD
* 1" of FBM 20 ILD (on the bottom because it feels like the firmest of the bunch)
* the mattress core: coils, covered by fiber-pads, covered by a layer of dacron

This arrangement was not great on the pressure points -- no big surprise there. My shoulders & hips are a bit sore this morning, but my arms did not fall asleep, so that's something. Still some slight lower-back pain -- makes me wonder if I now have too much stuff between the mattress & the foundation. (I added a piece of the convoluted PU foam there, across the hip area.) But I did *not* feel like I was waking up in a sinkhole, and I didn't feel like I'd crippled my back overnight.

So, next things to try: taking out that piece of foam between mattress & foundation; and switching the 1" layer of 14 ILD with the 2" layer of 14 ILD. I'm still not fond of that stuff, and I think 19-22 ILD would be better, but the 14 is what I have, so I'll try it next.

If I go right through the 2" of 14 ILD, then I believe it will be time to go over to the dark side and add an inch of 4lb or 5lb memory foam, and hope the off-gassing doesn't kill me. (An inch of memory foam will likely be cheaper than an inch or two of 19 ILD latex from SLAB or 1.5" of 22-24 ILD from SleepEZ.)

When I bought the 20ILD latex from FBM, I also bought a 3" thick 5lb memory foam seat cushion for my office chair. I don't think I'd want to sleep on 3" of the stuff, but it ain't bad as a seat cushion; it came with a nice terry-cloth cover; and there's no off-gassing that I can detect (i.e., no chemical smell).

 

Some notes about the FBM 20 ILD latex: it's full size (not shorted at all); no seams; no tears. Not at all comparable to SLAB's 19 ILD; as other people here have said, the FBM latex feels much firmer than that. Pretty sure it's blended Talalay, not all natural. Not sure if I'll keep it -- it might be useful as a transition layer between the medium-soft latex and the mattress coils... or it might not.

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #24 Dec 31, 2011 12:32 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
Probably best to try to reduce as many moving parts as possible and try to find out if it gives enough support for your back.   You may have to give the current configuration a few days to see how your back does.  Some issues to think about:   Is your box spring/foundation firm enough or does it sag?  Is it a traditional box spring?   Why do you need eggrcate between the box spring and mattress?   Normally you should not need something like that.  Are the mattress springs firm enough?   Is the foam on the other side of the mattress causing sagging?  You may have to elimate that as well.

 The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay.  If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort.   After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders.

 

p.s.  My current configuration over pretty firm Sealy coils is 2" of 32 talalay (~20 cutout under shoulders) + 1" 5lb. Sensus memory foam + 1" 19 talalay + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam, covered with Natura washable wool mattress pad.    This is a bit softer than I have used recently, but in winter I like it a bit softer and cozier.  I tend to find 5" over the coils is best for me, but as I have said my coils and box spring are pretty firm (one sided ~760 queen interlaced 14 gauge).

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by sandman
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #25 Dec 31, 2011 1:12 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
sandman wrote:

...Some issues to think about:   Is your box spring/foundation firm enough or does it sag?  Is it a traditional box spring? 

Not a traditional box spring; just a wooden foundation that came with the mattress. I'm not sure what could sag, since there are no springs in it, but if something is sagging, the thin piece of plywood I have over it (extending across the bed, in the hip area) might take care of that. That's what I'm trying, anyway.

The whole shebang is resting on an old wooden bed frame, with 8 slats running across. (Used to just have 4, but when I bought the new mattress, I added 4 more slats.) The foundation has a center rail running lengthwise as part of its construction.

 

Why do you need eggrcate between the box spring and mattress?   Normally you should not need something like that. 

That's just something I tried last night. It ran only across the hip area -- I was operating on the theory that maybe any foam sagging in the bottom of the mattress might need some bolstering. Not sure it did anything, one way or the other, so I took that out today.

 

Are the mattress springs firm enough? 

Honestly, I don't know. They feel firm & springy when I'm lying on just the mattress, or just the mattress & a sheet of latex.

However, I just stood on the mattress and walked around on it a bit, and there is a marked difference between the left and right sides. The side I sleep on sinks down much more. I don't know if that implicates the coils or the foam under the coils. (It does tell me that I didn't rotate or flip the mattress often enough, which I sorta already knew.)

 

Is the foam on the other side of the mattress causing sagging?  You may have to elimate that as well.

I don't know that, either, and don't know how to eliminate that as a variable.* I'm guessing that it's sagging, because of the sinkhole issue, but I don't really know. With the mattress de-constructed as it is now, I'm not sure I'd be able to flip it over and test it. (I might attempt to rotate it, though.)

Because the mattress is double-sided, the coils are covered by the fiber-pads & dacron on both top & bottom.

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* Had an idea. I don't want to detach the entire fiber-pad, but I detached it in a few places on one side, and put two sets of weight plates in there (a 5lb plate over a 10lb plate in each set), directly on the coils. Put one set in the hip area on the side I've been sleeping on, and shoved the other set over to the other side. I can't tell by just looking whether there's a difference in how much the weight plates sink, but when I lay a level across the area (the level is resting on both plates), nothing shows up. The level shows the plates being... level.

Don't know if that helps or not, or whether 15 pounds in each set is enough.  (OK, I just added another 10lb plate to each set, and the level still shows everything as being level. Is 25lb per set enough weight to implicate the foam on the bottom, as opposed to the coils? I weigh about 120 lb.)

Could the fiber-pad be a factor? Could it be worn out? Or since it was already partly detached on my side when I decided to stand on the mattress, would that be a factor? Seems to make a difference if I yank on the thing to tighten it across the mattress, but I could be imagining things by now.....

Also, the side that seems firmer is the one with the top quilted panel still attached, so there's more structural integrity over there. On the side I've been sleeping on, there's not a lot holding the whole thing together anymore. For all I know, my weight (when I was standing on the mattress) was pushing things outward and not just downward. This testing is hard to do with just one person.

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The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay.  If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort.   After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders.

That makes sense.

Thanks for all your help, sandman. This problem has been driving me nuts for several months, and aside from the sleeping & pain issues, which are enough in themselves, it bugs me no end that I can't figure this thing out.

-------

Just thought of something: On the various specs pages of the Jamestown Mattress website, I don't see anything specifying what size mattress the specs are for. So I don't know if that 528-coil-count is for a twin, full, queen, or king. When I bought the mattress, I was told it had 660 coils, but who knows if that's accurate? Sigh.

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #26 Dec 31, 2011 3:20 PM
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
Points: 60
Catherine wrote:

 

 

Or maybe not....

 

When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. 


Catherine, the whole zoning thing (which I am now pretty convinced is the answer for me, been sleeping on a crude zoned system for a week or two now, while meanwhile cutting a lot of firewood and other back-aggravating activities, and ZERO back pain, knock on wood ...) seems to me to make a lot more sense for males that females.   My shoulders are much wider than hips (circumference is like 15" more, when I measured for CSD's tool), so with un-zoned system my hips will be much lower, hence kinked spine and back pain.

Seems to me that the same geometry does not apply to women, generally speaking.    Not to get too personal :-) but based on your height/weight it sounds like you have a fairly classic feminine shape.

I honor you for using mirrors.   It's JUST the kind of geeky thing I would do - although I haven't yet.   A simpler way might be a camera on a tripod using the self-timer or perhaps a remote shutter release.

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by RustyShackleford
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #27 Dec 31, 2011 3:57 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
RustyShackleford wrote:

Catherine, the whole zoning thing  ...  seems to me to make a lot more sense for males that females.   My shoulders are much wider than hips (circumference is like 15" more, when I measured for CSD's tool), so with un-zoned system my hips will be much lower, hence kinked spine and back pain.

Seems to me that the same geometry does not apply to women, generally speaking.    Not to get too personal :-) but based on your height/weight it sounds like you have a fairly classic feminine shape.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that, especially since I did not need any zoning for the first year on the mattress. My bone structure gives me an hourglass figure, of sorts (but without the Marilyn Monroe-esqe voluptuousness): about 38" for the shoulder circumference, about 28" waist, and about 38" at the hips. The CSD tool gives me results that specify zoning, but that's just someone's set of algorithms, which might or might not apply to this particular body.

I'm a tad long in the torso, and that makes me think more about the conforming aspects of memory foam. I might have to try an inch of it, just to know one way or the other.

 

I honor you for using mirrors.   It's JUST the kind of geeky thing I would do - although I haven't yet.   A simpler way might be a camera on a tripod using the self-timer or perhaps a remote shutter release.

Well, thanks. I don't have a tripod, though I might be able to set something up, but I don't have a remote shutter release, either. I suppose I should find out if my camera has a self-timer. It's an old one (in technology time-spans), but I have the manual.


I have spent way too much time on all this, but don't really feel like I have a choice, given what the mattress has been doing to my back the past few months.  And I still don't know whether the PU foam or the coils (or both) are the culprit(s). 

 

---------
(If using weight plates and a level isn't geeky, I don't know what is... smiley)

This message was modified Dec 31, 2011 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #28 Dec 31, 2011 4:19 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
Catherine wrote:

 

Not a traditional box spring; just a wooden foundation that came with the mattress. I'm not sure what could sag, since there are no springs in it, but if something is sagging, the thin piece of plywood I have over it (extending across the bed, in the hip area) might take care of that. That's what I'm trying, anyway.

The whole shebang is resting on an old wooden bed frame, with 8 slats running across. (Used to just have 4, but when I bought the new mattress, I added 4 more slats.) The foundation has a center rail running lengthwise as part of its construction.

 

That's just something I tried last night. It ran only across the hip area -- I was operating on the theory that maybe any foam sagging in the bottom of the mattress might need some bolstering. Not sure it did anything, one way or the other, so I took that out today.

 

Honestly, I don't know. They feel firm & springy when I'm lying on just the mattress, or just the mattress & a sheet of latex.

However, I just stood on the mattress and walked around on it a bit, and there is a marked difference between the left and right sides. The side I sleep on sinks down much more. I don't know if that implicates the coils or the foam under the coils. (It does tell me that I didn't rotate or flip the mattress often enough, which I sorta already knew.)

 

I don't know that, either, and don't know how to eliminate that as a variable.* I'm guessing that it's sagging, because of the sinkhole issue, but I don't really know. With the mattress de-constructed as it is now, I'm not sure I'd be able to flip it over and test it. (I might attempt to rotate it, though.)

Because the mattress is double-sided, the coils are covered by the fiber-pads & dacron on both top & bottom.

-------------
* Had an idea. I don't want to detach the entire fiber-pad, but I detached it in a few places on one side, and put two sets of weight plates in there (a 5lb plate over a 10lb plate in each set), directly on the coils. Put one set in the hip area on the side I've been sleeping on, and shoved the other set over to the other side. I can't tell by just looking whether there's a difference in how much the weight plates sink, but when I lay a level across the area (the level is resting on both plates), nothing shows up. The level shows the plates being... level.

Don't know if that helps or not, or whether 15 pounds in each set is enough.  (OK, I just added another 10lb plate to each set, and the level still shows everything as being level. Is 25lb per set enough weight to implicate the foam on the bottom, as opposed to the coils? I weigh about 120 lb.)

Could the fiber-pad be a factor? Could it be worn out? Or since it was already partly detached on my side when I decided to stand on the mattress, would that be a factor? Seems to make a difference if I yank on the thing to tighten it across the mattress, but I could be imagining things by now.....

Also, the side that seems firmer is the one with the top quilted panel still attached, so there's more structural integrity over there. On the side I've been sleeping on, there's not a lot holding the whole thing together anymore. For all I know, my weight (when I was standing on the mattress) was pushing things outward and not just downward. This testing is hard to do with just one person.

-------------

That makes sense.

Thanks for all your help, sandman. This problem has been driving me nuts for several months, and aside from the sleeping & pain issues, which are enough in themselves, it bugs me no end that I can't figure this thing out.

-------

Just thought of something: On the various specs pages of the Jamestown Mattress website, I don't see anything specifying what size mattress the specs are for. So I don't know if that 528-coil-count is for a twin, full, queen, or king. When I bought the mattress, I was told it had 660 coils, but who knows if that's accurate? Sigh.


Foundation sounds like it should be okay.   You can try laying right on it to see if it seems to sag at all.  You should try lying on both sides of the mattress to see if they seem different.  Walking or using weights may be too difficult to tell.   If there is a material difference, then you may have a problem beyond just the foam you removed.   You should not have the quilted panel over it for testing, but if it is hanging over the side it should be okay.   How thick is the fiber pad?  You do want to keep something over the coils.  Also, are the coils wired together?   I assume they are not pocketed coils.

Yes, taking the top of does affect the structure integrity a bit.  It probably helps to have a tight and tucked in mattress pad over it.  Most of the mattresses also have foam or some kind of support around the edges, which can help as well.

Keep at it!  You may want to sleep on it a bit before making any more decisions.  Possibly rotating to see what the other side is like as well. 


 

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