Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery / new mattress
Aug 24, 2011 8:46 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.)

=======================================

(Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.)

---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the current setup:
Two-year-old 9" high old-fashioned, two-sided (flippable), firm innerspring mattress (full size), on a wooden [correction: wood and steel] foundation; both still in very good shape.
On top of the mattress: 2" 32 ILD Talatech latex topper from SleepLikeABear.
On top of that: 1" Talatech latex topper, 24 ILD.
The 3" of latex are enclosed in a heavy-ish cotton/poly cover from FBM.

Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood).

(The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.)

So:

With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness.

When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.)

One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago.  But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out.

(If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.)

Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work?

Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32?

I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

Thanks!
-- Catherine

Edited to add:
In case it's useful, here's what I've tried before:

1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.)

2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.]

This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #71 Jan 11, 2012 4:27 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
sandman wrote:

You  might be better putting a foundation on it.   You can see how many slats a Flobeds foundation has.    Plus the slats are attached to the sides of the foundation which will help keep them from dipping down.  ....

I was thinking of using my current wooden foundation (the one that came with my innerspring) but putting a sheet of plywood over it to add stability and help prevent dipping.

Don't know if that would be enough, or if I'd still need to rig up some sort of center rail that could still be unscrewed when the bed frame needs to be taken apart for moving.

 

Since I've got 5" of medium to medium-firm latex here (1" 24 ILD Talatech, 1" N3/27 ILD, 1" FBM 20 [more like 28-30 ILD], and 2" med.-firm Dunlop), I might be able to add a 3" firm Dunlop base and have a good start there. 

The 2" Dunlop that I have is the Overstock topper that I had stopped using because I thought it was cratering (assumed it was cheap synthetic stuff). I don't see evidence of cratering in it now, but I've been using it for only a few nights, so at this point, I don't know whether it will crater eventually or whether it was actually the mattress under it that was cratering before. Either way, it's useful right now. 

This message was modified Jan 11, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #72 Jan 11, 2012 7:30 PM
Joined: Dec 23, 2011
Points: 82
Catherine wrote:

 

I was thinking of using my current wooden foundation (the one that came with my innerspring) but putting a sheet of plywood over it to add stability and help prevent dipping.

Don't know if that would be enough, or if I'd still need to rig up some sort of center rail that could still be unscrewed when the bed frame needs to be taken apart for moving.


If the curent slats are dipping, then you'll need to replace them and add a center brace. If the current slats are straight, I'd add as many additional slats as you can keeping a maximum distance of 2.5" between each one. I know there's plenty of debate as to whether or not latex needs to breath. I could not find anything other than some people's opinions as to whether or not this is true, but decided myself to err on the side of caution and stick with slats rather than plywood. My Home Depot sells 1x3s (actual size - 3/4" x 2.5") in untreated yellow pine for less than $2 per 8' board. If you add 12 sticks, you looking at less than $25 worth of wood. If you don't have a saw, you can even get them to cut it for you for something like $0.50 a cut.

This message was modified Jan 11, 2012 by megalops
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #73 Jan 11, 2012 9:49 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
megalops wrote:

If the curent slats are dipping, then you'll need to replace them and add a center brace. If the current slats are straight, I'd add as many additional slats as you can keeping a maximum distance of 2.5" between each one. ...... My Home Depot sells 1x3s (actual size - 3/4" x 2.5") in untreated yellow pine for less than $2 per 8' board. If you add 12 sticks, you looking at less than $25 worth of wood. If you don't have a saw, you can even get them to cut it for you for something like $0.50 a cut.

I don't think they're dipping, but I'd have to get under the bed with a flashlight to check, I guess.

Thanks for the suggestion. Home Depot is where I got the extra slats a couple years ago; I have a hand saw, but had HD cut the lumber for me (faster & easier). Still have a couple extra slats in the basement.

If I go the foam route, I'd prefer a solid base under it, but need to have a sense of whether this old frame could handle the weight. (I know no one can tell me without actually seeing the thing.) It's held up this long, so it could well hold up another 50 years. The dressers have certainly lasted well.
 

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #74 Jan 12, 2012 3:24 AM
Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Points: 93
envelops wrote:

 


If the curent slats are dipping, then you'll need to replace them and add a center brace. If the current slats are straight, I'd add as many additional slats as you can keeping a maximum distance of 2.5" between each one. I know there's plenty of debate as to whether or not latex needs to breath.[b] I could not find anything other than some people's opinions as to whether or not this is true, but decided myself to err on the side of caution and stick with slats rather than plywood. [/b]My Home Depot sells 1x3s (actual size - 3/4" x 2.5") in untreated yellow pine for less than $2 per 8' board. If you add 12 sticks, you looking at less than $25 worth of wood. If you don't have a saw, you can even get them to cut it for you for something like $0.50 a cut.


Same here.  

 

Either way I'd bet an old solid wood frame is sturdy enough for whatever you stack on it.  

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #75 Jan 12, 2012 9:54 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
JasonRatky wrote:

Either way I'd bet an old solid wood frame is sturdy enough for whatever you stack on it.  

Thanks, Jason (and thanks, megalops).
 

I've been saying my foundation is wooden, but I guess it does have some steel in it, too. It's the Leggett & Platt "Semi-Flex limited deflection" unit.

Relevant links if anyone's interested (these things come with a lot of mattresses now):

L&P Semi-Flex Web page (a little info)

L&P Semi-Flex PDF (details about the semi-flex foundation)

 

I am spending entirely too much time pondering mattress components and options.... indecision

 

----------------------------------
Edited the next morning to add:
Whatever this foundation is made of, I'm feeling the slats on it through 5" of medium latex + my old thin fiberbed. [Correction: I'm feeling the metal grid. Youch. The wooden slats are just supporting the metal grid. I should have looked at the L&P PDF more carefully.]   Yesterday morning wasn't bad, but today I woke up feeling like I've been pummeled. I might be back on the couch tonight. And/or I might have to get a few inches of inexpensive high-density PU foam, just to buy myself some time.

This message was modified Jan 13, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #76 Jan 13, 2012 11:07 AM
Joined: Jan 13, 2012
Points: 22
Catherine, I love that you have taken the surgery on, but whew what a wrestling match.   I'm not about to attempt surgery, but have the issues with hips and shoulders just not being right. 

 

I am also obsessed with finding the right mattress, but have a few comments;

Do not put a solid piece of plywood under your mattress - it won't breathe and can mold. 

I would try the old foundation, but make certain the slats are spaced and secure.

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #77 Jan 13, 2012 2:32 PM
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
Points: 60
SallySmiles wrote:

Do not put a solid piece of plywood under your mattress - it won't breathe and can mold. 

I bought a metal bed with a really cheesy set of supports, that I think was sagging and causing back pain.   

So I replaced it with plywood, supported by 2x4s - seriously sturdy.   Of course, as you point out, I had to address moisture issues.    So I got a spade bit and drilled at least a hundred 1+" holes in it.   I *think* it's enough, haven't noticed any moisture, or seen any mold, on the bottom of my foam.   I keep thinking I should drill more sometime ...

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #78 Jan 13, 2012 2:41 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
RustyShackleford wrote:

....So I got a spade bit and drilled at least a hundred 1+" holes in it.   I *think* it's enough, haven't noticed any moisture, or seen any mold, on the bottom of my foam.....

I've thought about doing that -- or just getting some pegboard, if that's sturdy enough. (I think it would be, since it'd be resting on top of my foundation, not directly on the bed frame). I'd probably put it under a sheet or inside my allergen casing or something, so it's not directly under the mattress.

Gonna check the bed-frame slats next and then get back to work....Well, what do you know... got me some dips there.* (I flipped the dipping slats over.)

I'll have to add a few more slats to the bed frame, probably, and see about rigging up some sort of center support** from the bottom. The center support would have to rest on the floor, because there's nothing it can attach to on the bed frame.

 

------------

* Even when my innerspring mattress is directly on the floor, the coils do not feel supportive enough, so I don't know how much of a factor those little dips were. The foundation seems quite sturdy.

** Or get something like the "adjustable center leg bed frame support" gizmo from Woodcraft (but I'd need a few of them), or some sort of steel support gizmo from The Sleep Shop (they have several options), or some sort of steel center support from Planet Bed (their "V-Rail" thing looks neat but might be overkill for me).

Those "BedBeam" things look very sturdy, but I don't think they'd work with my bed frame (ditto for some of these other metal support systems). My cross-slats aren't attached to the rails; they lie *on* the rails (or on the "cleats" if that's the proper term for that small ledge on each rail), so they're about a half-inch higher. The BedBeams and Metal Support Slats look like they're meant to be flush with the rails/cleats/ledges/whatever they're called, so I'd have to add half-inch-high blocks of wood under them where they'd attach to the ledges if I want to use them with my wooden slats (rather than instead of them).

Ditto with the Strong Arm Center Supports and these Mighty Lift supports; I'd have to shim them if I want to use them in addition to my slats, rather than instead of my slats. I guess these things & the BedBeams are intended to replace the wooden slats. (Um... duh?)

The Lazarbeam Center Support would work with the slats I have, since it's just meant to help keep them up.

So... replace the wooden slats with steel slats (that could get expensive); get something like the Lazarbeam; use those standalone things from Woodcraft; or find a very low-tech way to add center support to my wooden slats?

I could just get a long sturdy piece of lumber and give it a few sturdy "legs." Since any mattress I get is going to rest on the self-contained foundation, rather than on the bed-frame slats, I don't think I have to worry about the frame getting bowed outward to the sides. (Do I?)

 

(Pardon all my thinking-out-loud here. Those steel support systems are not returnable, so I don't want to get stuck with something that turns out not to work because I forgot some important detail, like, you know, how my bed frame is actually constructed.)

This message was modified Jan 15, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #79 Jan 15, 2012 1:28 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
Decided to go for simplicity. I just ordered some of those standalone supports from Woodcraft (called the local store, and they'll call me when the supports arrive, later this week -- maybe not till Friday). Rather than use those directly under the slats, I might use them as legs under one long piece of lumber to make a full-length center-support beam. Easy to put together, easy to take apart.

Of course, when I add the center support, I'll have to find another place to put the mattress, which is now stashed under my bed. It'll have to lean up against a wall somewhere or just go out to the curb.

Yesterday I covered the foundation with a sheet of luan so I wouldn't feel the metal grid from the foundation poking me. (Luan was probably not the best choice, but it was cheap, I didn't see any decent-looking pegboard, and I was delirious from lack of sleep. If I need something different later, I'll get what's needed.)   So now I have the Novabond mat under the luan, and the 2 sheets of Dacron from the mattress over that, and then my latex & my old thin fiberbed. (So now I feel a solid hard surface instead of metal wires; a different sort of discomfort but preferable to the wires... I think.)

I might order a few inches of 50 ILD or 35 ILD (or maybe an inch or two of both) from FBM to use as a temporary mattress core under my latex. If that's comfortable enough, it'll give me time to recover from the months of sleep deprivation & mattress-caused pain, and I'll be in better shape to decide if I want to stick with a PU foam base, go for a Dunlop core, or try another innerspring.  That's the hope, anyway. We'll see how things go.

---------

Added Monday AM: Last night I added one more inch of latex, using the stuff I'd tried zoning with (14 ILD, 32 ILD, 14 ILD; put below the 24 ILD and N3/27 ILD layers). Not wonderful, but it helped enough with pressure points that I might not need the temporary poly-foam core. Not quite sure yet. (Still some lower back pain, but I don't know if it's from the latex, from the dacron being worn out, from my slightly dippy slats, or from a combination of those. Shoulders were much better this morning, though.)

This message was modified Jan 16, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #80 Jan 23, 2012 9:07 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
Last week I wrote:

Decided to go for simplicity. I just ordered some of those standalone supports from Woodcraft..... Rather than use those directly under the slats, I might use them as legs under one long piece of lumber to make a full-length center-support beam. Easy to put together, easy to take apart.

Um... did I say "easy"? Yeah, right.

I've got four of those adjustable center support thingies attached to a 6-foot pine 1"x4", and that's under all the slats now. And may I just say... what a freakin' pain in the a--.

The screws that came with each support were too long -- I didn't want them poking through the other side of the 1x4 -- so I had to go buy different screws. And you have to really wail on the rubber bottoms of those supports with a hammer to get the one piece inserted into the other. And I thought I finally had each support adjusted to the right height before I put the foundation back on the bed, but I still wound up on my back on the floor, under the bed (not much clearance there), using my crescent wrench, at all sorts of odd angles, to adjust the height of each support some more. And the supports don't seem particularly stable, at least on a hardwood floor -- maybe they'd work better if they sank into some carpet.

Also, while moving my torch lamp from my office to see how long the cord was, to see if it would reach into the bedroom so I could maybe see what I was doing while drilling starter holes and screwing the metal supports into the pine, I managed to topple the lamp over and send shards of glass all over -- in the office, down the hall, into my bedroom, and into the room at the other end of the hall. (All swept & vacuumed up now.... I hope.) So now I need to replace an $80 lamp that I really liked. crying

Obviously there are much worse problems in the world, but I am not a happy camper right now.

Those supports and that 6' piece of pine better do their job, and I better be able to rule out dipping slats as a cause of any sink holes appearing in any mattress that ever goes on that bed. (So there!)

Man, I'm tired of wrestling with this stuff..... frown I'm lucky to be physically able to wrestle with this stuff, but I am tired of wrestling with it.

No decisions on the next mattress yet, either. Back still hurts; hip still hurts.

But the finger that got gouged a couple weeks ago appears to be healing with minimal scarring, so that's something. cheeky

This message was modified Jan 24, 2012 by Catherine

Recent Posts