overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Dec 1, 2010 3:33 PM
Joined: May 22, 2008
Points: 171
i have a sleepez bed that I keep trying to soften by adding more layers of foam in the case. So I now have 4.5 layers in a case meant for 3 layers. The case still zips, but I wonder if I am compressing the foam so much that it is affecting the feel. I have talalay latex, which always felt springy to me, but I am wondering if this made it more springy? Or if this is bad for the foam? 
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #103 Dec 26, 2010 11:39 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
I've been working on writing something as a "guideline" that is a little simpler than my previous efforts but I always find that there are so many "important" things to include that it becomes "Charlie Brown's teacher" like (in Leo's words :)) and gets too complicated for what I would think most people want to read. I think that most people just want to get the "chore" over and done with as quickly as possible and would probably be happy with 70 - 80% but that would also leave out the people who wanted more "accuracy" or had more complex situations and were willing to spend a little more time and research on their choice.

It'll probably be a while before I find the balance that is the "most effective".

I did at least get to some kind of definition of a "perfect mattress" though ...

A perfect mattress is the one that feels wonderful in every way when you first lay on it, that forms a "perfect for you" pressure relieving cradle in all your sleeping positions, and that seems like it "floats" on top of perfectly supporting lower layers that keep you in alignment all night long. This is the equivalent of "sleeping on a cloud".
 
I guess that's a start (laughing).
 
Phoenix
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #104 Dec 27, 2010 12:08 AM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
Phoenix wrote:

Given that there are 2 "basic" approaches to construction (differential and progressive ... although there are variations and other schemes as well) ... once you've decided on one or the other then the rest becomes much easier. Differential is a "safer" way to go with a support core first and then playing with comfort layers that are more "independent" of the support layers. Because "progressive" layering uses part of an underlying or overlying layer more, it is more difficult to get the support right even if you can get to the right comfort layers more easily. I personally prefer the "differential" approach for most people only because it is generally "safer" and easier to build. Since it always involves firmer support cores that are more based on weight and weight distribution, it is easier to build comfort on top of it. The progressive approach is more "nuanced" and many times involves changes and "transition layers" that affect both support and comfort more. Getting one right can very easily put the other one out of kilter. Because it has "finer" adjustments, It may end up being more "accurate" however and can be the difference between 80% and 95% perfection.

Phoenix

Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean?  Differential?  Progressive, like bifocals, LOL.  Talk layman terms for dummies please.  Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft?  Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning?

Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #105 Dec 27, 2010 12:12 AM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
st3v3k4hn wrote:

You should write a book on this!

 

At the very least someone should collect your posts (& other good ones) and make them "stickies" - I assume you know what that is, but if not, its a collection of posts that answer the most commonly asked questions and stay at the top of the forum all the time. People basically ask 10 questions on this forum - and those have been answered 100 times, 100 ways. Awfully hard to find the best answers without something like FAQs or stickies. Wonder if there is an admin who might do this??

Just PM Admin, there is a stickies already at the top of the page.  If he likes he posts wink
 

You asked about is the blanket enough to protect the latex, yes.  You just are protecting it from light and dirt.  When I used the Natura wool with polyester backing that was rough it ripped up my latex, so no that is not good.  Luckily that latex is no longer used, it was shredded from that backing of the topper.  You don't need a zipper case for my uses.  Maybe for yours you need or want it too look good.  But mine has a sheet over it and is not seen.  Some do it yourself people used the terry cloth zipper over 3 layers of latex and it is protected enough.

This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Leo3
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #106 Dec 27, 2010 12:28 AM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
"Uh oh Charlie Brown's teacher is here, LOL, seriously though what the heck do you mean?  Differential?  Progressive, like bifocals, LOL.  Talk layman terms for dummies please.  Do you mean a hard as rock core, then soft?  Do you mean Firm, medium, then soft is worse to do for fine tuning?"

Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm)

Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm)

Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder.

Phoenix

PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing).

This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #107 Dec 27, 2010 12:39 AM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
Phoenix wrote:

Differential approach means a bigger difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layer(s). Say 3" of say 19 - 22 ILD over 6" of 36 or 40 ILD (or soft over firm)

Progressive approach means a smaller difference in ILD between the comfort layer(s) and the support layers(s) say 3" of 22 ILD over 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 40 ILD (or soft over medium over firm)

Starting with Soft, Medium, Firm can be much more difficult to adjust because it's sort of a "compromise" of both comfort and support and trying to change the comfort ends up affecting the support as well (and vice versa) more than the other one. You can often get "more accurate" this way and change the overall "feel" of a mattress more but it can be a lot harder.

Phoenix

PS: you're a tough nut to crack ... but a great "testing ground" for what I "try to" write (laughing).

Okay so I have a "differential" setup with my hard mattress, then soft layer top.  You are saying that is better?  I notice Sleepeze 99.999% always recommends soft, medium, firm, so that is a tougher to get comfortable from the readers posting here.  But you are saying (the last paragraph) you can often get "more accurate" this way... but it can be a lot harder.

I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.  laugh  Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting.

Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #108 Dec 27, 2010 12:47 AM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
"I don't know about me being a tough nut to crack, or what that means, LOL, but I am more honest than most if I don't understand something I say so.  laugh  Maybe I am asking what some other people are thinking and not posting."

You probably are posting what lots of people are thinking and not posting ... that's why I said you were a great testing ground. The "tough nut to crack" means you are challenging me (in a good way) to be a better combination of simple and informative and that if what I post "works" for you it will probably "work" for lots of people ... but it's tough to get there :)

Sometimes too it's important (to me at least) to go into more detail than most would want just for the few that may like to read "every technicality" or every "opinion" I may have or know about. This is what some of the old posters (dbhayes, cloud9 and quite a few others) that sadly aren't posting anymore used to do as well in the old forum and the earlier part of this one and it really helped lots of people as well ... including me. There doesn't seem to be quite as much "research based" type of posts at the moment as there once was. There's a lot of people still here from those times that still post and help a lot of people so they might have an interesting perspective on this as well. Did they all get tired or did the switch in forums really have that big an effect?

Yes ... you have a "differential" setup which is easier to get "close". The progressive setup could end up better (at least for some) but can take a lot of patience, fiddling, or "correct predictions" sometimes to get there. It might also need "non standard" layer thicknesses outside of just 2" or 3" to get to "perfection". Which one is "better" really depends on the person but in my experience getting to 80 - 90% or so is probably good enough for most and this is often easier to get to with the "differential" approach.

If Soft medium firm with maybe one layer exchange is "close enough" for someone, then they are happy. If it's not close enough, or if someone really needs something closer to "the best for them" and one layer exchange doesn't get there, then it often starts an endless series of adjustments that seem too often to "fall short". Sometimes it's because none of the choices seem to work (for usually unknown to them reasons) and sometimes it's because they just run out of patience or will and think that "nothing will work".

Phoenix

This message was modified Dec 27, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #109 Dec 27, 2010 2:08 PM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
I think many old posters quite honestly still never got it right, or they got it right and stopped posting.  There are many latex mattress people who never liked the mattress and they tried and tried and some ended up loving them.  I also think some people ending up hating them and just never post back.  Who really knows.  I think some people who have some physical pain that may never get it comfortable.  But who can say that is true for sure, we are all just assuming we know how to fix a mattress by mathematical equations (not pointing fingers) but there is just comfort factors you can not equate.  The other problem is the first night the mattress sleeps great, second night not so good, third horrible; or the other experience the first night is horrible.  Now can you really say keep trying it night after night?  How long do you experiment.  Frankly I may give up and sleep in a recliner!  I have heard that statement before.  Then you have people who can sleep on a rock, they have no problems sleeping on anything (my hubby is like that).
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #110 Dec 27, 2010 3:34 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
"we are all just assuming we know how to fix a mattress by mathematical equations (not pointing fingers) but there is just comfort factors you can not equate."

I wish there was a mathematical formula that could be used ... it could help a lot in some cases ... but I don't know of any. Who is making these assumptions ... I'd like to find them and see if they would give me their "formula" (smiling).

I certainly agree with you though that it's really hard to "figure in" comfort factors. It's a lot more intuitive than mathematical. If they do some field testing though it's a lot easier to get a sense of what feels comfortable for them.

Having said that, I do see many times people who try to change things that have little chance for success. There are always a few (like yourself) that stick to it but unfortunately there are also lots who give up once they've made a comfort switch or two that doesn't work out. Sometimes the switch they are trying has very low odds of success and could have been "predicted". I think these are the ones who often lose hope when they don't see improvement.

Most of the old posters I was talking about weren't looking for a mattress. I meant some of the old posters that had been around for many years that seemed to stop posting when the forum changed or soon after.

Phoenix

Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #111 Dec 27, 2010 8:56 PM
Joined: May 22, 2008
Points: 171
Well, essentially I am one of those old posters who never quite got things right and just gave up and quit posting. It was purely random that after 2 years I thought of trying again and got Phoenix to help out. Lucky me!

Anyway, Phoenix, here is today's trip report. I went to Seattle Mattress Co and Bedrooms and More.

 

Seattle Mattress 
 
Not all that impressed with this place. Only 1 salesperson, hard to tell how knowledgeable (but she was pushing Serta, so...). Lots of Sertas and Trumps and other very comfortable but poly foam-filled mattresses that wouldn't last. Had one brand I hadn't heard of - Therapedic - that was latex over 14 gauge pocket springs. Pretty comfortable, but I doubt it would last.
 
Their latex was all talalay. (Incidentally they claimed talalay is better because dunlop is poured and so can be wavey / inconsistent feeling). Standard is a 3" soft (19 ILD) latex wrapped in about an inch of poly/cotton, over a 6" core (either 28 or 36). All of these felt too soft to me; or rather, they felt great, but I think they would be too soft to sleep on (my hips felt like they sank in too much both on my side and on my back). I also tried the topper on an extra firm continuous coil inner spring; it was a bit firmer but essentially the same; I jack-knifed a bit too much. And that was pretty much all they had.
 
Bedrooms and More
 
I've actually been here before and I really like the store and staff. They have lots to try and seem to know alot. I know they are overpriced but frankly I like them so much and like the idea of being able to easily switch things that I might actually go thru them if I buy. I didn't actually try any latex over springs there, mostly because they had a lot of latex that I liked.
 
I did try the OMI Terra, which was great, but I think maybe a bit too soft?!?! (I expected to have trouble finding latex matresses that felt soft enough, was actually pretty shocked to find that most of them were, and if anything I worried about them being too soft.) Same for the Natura with the 4" topper; although the 2" topper was a bit too firm, so 3" seems to be about right for me. Again, shocked...
 
The only decently priced latex was Englander. I had mixed feelings about this brand but they claim that these mattresses are either custom made for them or the very top of their range. All were dunlop latex only, no other foams. They had several interesting choices:
  • Separate 6" core of medium or firm dunlop, you add toppers from their collection until you are happy. I added a soft 2" talalay + a soft wool topper which felt pretty good. Would need to play more before I bought. Advantage here is its customizable, if the 2" topper isn't enough they will exchange for 3", if the wool flattens I can just buy a new one. 
  • 5.5-7.5" latex cores wrapped in quilted latex, cotton, and/or wool. There are 3 models, with differing degrees of wrap. They claim they all will hold up well but obviously the saftest choice would be the plainest, least wrapped one. This was a "cushion firm" they also called it the 5003. This actually felt pretty decent by itself, altho I think it would be best with a similar topper to above (maybe a little less, ie could probably just use the wool topper). The advantage here is its a bit cheaper (because they sell more and because some of the topper is included in the bed). Also you can flip these, which I'm not really sure is an advantage but I'll include it anyway. Disadvantage is if the "minimal" materials in the wrapping flatten you can't replace them.
  • A model with 2 4" mattresses stacked on each other. The 2 mattresses were identical; each had a "firm" and a "soft" side, and you could change the feel by changing the way you laid out the mattresses. This was a custom design done for them, and I think its not that well proven yet, but interesting concept. 

As I said, the big shocker for me was that almost all of these latex mattresses seemed plenty soft. So I am even more confused because most of these were pretty close to what I have now.  The Englanders were ~ 6" medium dunlop with anywhere from 1-3" softer latex and other stuff on top. My bed is currently set up as 6" medium dunlop with 3" soft talalay on top. Why is my bed so much less comfortable? I really hope you can make sense of this!

One other note, I am considering getting 2 twin XL pieces instead if a standard king if I get a "flippable" model; just to make it lighter and easier to flip. I think as long as I have some sort of topper on it would be fine (like the sleepez bed). Do you agree?
 
Thanks again for all your help!
 
Steve
Re: overstuffing mattress case with foam layers
Reply #112 Dec 27, 2010 11:50 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
I think your overall experience pretty much parallelled mine at least as far as the comparison between stores. I did talk with people at Seattlemattress that seemed to know a little more but I would choose bedroomsand more over seattlemattress as well both in terms of what they knew and what they had available.

Englander in general is a kind of tricky brand because each one of the different licensees build them differently and they will also custom manufacture for different outlets. In Washington, they are made by Tualatin sleep products in Oregon so I would think if you ever need any "accurate information" about the specific outlet or model you were looking at you could call them and hopefully they would give it to you. I came across several places where I tested Englander and each of them were different. One place even tried to tell me it had "soy latex" and got angry when I disputed this. I do believe though that the Englander at bedroomsandmore are all latex. I think that the core of these may have been firmer than yours or a single core which would go a long way to explaining why you felt a difference. Your talalay top with either a firm Dunlop underneath or 2 firm Dunlops under may feel very similar.

Dunlop is an interesting type of latex because of it's tendency to settle in manufacture. This means that a single say 6" layer can act like it is softer on top and firmer underneath. This means that it's sag factor is higher than Talalay. I think this is why you often see single core mattresses made from it because it "acts" somewhat like talalay multiple layering. This would only apply though to a single 6" core and not two 3" cores since you would have no way of knowing which side a 3" core came from and it wouldn't have the same "range" of density as a 6" core no matter which side it was. If I was going to buy a single core mattress ... it would probably be Dunlop. This may explain some of the "counterintuitive" feedback that comes from Dunlop sometimes and the differences you felt from your mattress.

Therapedic just came out of a bankruptcy and is owned by the same people that own Eclipse and Eastman house. They are apparently run by "mattress people" rather than "financial people" and they have mostly latex mattresses in their pure touch line and Kathy Ireland line but they both are not "all latex" and IMO spoil them by putting some poly on top ... even though it's not as much as others. Other than that they seem to be well made.

I think that a lot of manufacturers have put softer poly over latex both to try to manufacture to a price point and also to be able to use slightly firmer latex underneath to provide better support. It almost seems that a lot of manufacturers didn't "trust" soft latex either and only recently with the introduction of some brands that are using it and "beating" the competition are you seeing it used more widely in the top layers. I think Natura and more recently Pure Latex Bliss had a lot to do with this.

I also liked the OMI and with the way it's constructed it may have been alright for support for me (my weight is fairly evenly distributed but I need soft for my bony parts) but it was way expensive. I sure did like how it felt though. For reference the OMI is 25ILD over 35 ILD over 25 ILD and the topper is also 25 ILD. They will also customize the ILD although the convoluted topper can only use 25 (softer would not be convoluted). It is also natural talalay which would act in thicker layers as sightly more resilient. I would probably be a little worried as well with that thick a layer of 25 ILD but with the thick ticking and the ability of latex to get firmer as you sink deeper, it may have been OK for me (may have been aligned with a deeper cradle) but with our weight difference it may be a bit risky for you. It does say though that in terms of feel and ILD that it felt good to you even at 25 ILD (acting a bit softer because of the convolute).

The Natura's that I tried were great testing grounds because of the different ILD's and thicknesses of Talalay that they had on top of a Dunlop core. I learned a lot about my "critical zone" (how thick a comfort layer I need) from these. I did a lot of testing here and elsewhere laying quietly and then just "bouncing" a bit on mattresses with my hip to see if I could sense what was underneath.

I am still convinced that your "critical zone" is 3.5-4" depending on the ILD of the latex in the top 2 layers. This means that a 3" topper with the right (slightly less) ILD underneath could very well feel pretty good although I believe that from your feedback that slightly firmer support would work better for you (you would need to be on a mattress longer to really know how it was support wise).

So all in all this seemed like a good experience and it seems to confirm the direction you are going. Relatively soft over relatively firm and very firm on the bottom. Dunlop also seems to be the best latex for you in the middle and lower layers without zoning at least.

Did you get a sense of whether "all latex" would work for you in a "good" layering scheme or are you still thinking that an innerspring may work better?

Phoenix

This message was modified Dec 28, 2010 by Phoenix

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