Latex - getting it right?
Sep 15, 2010 3:45 PM
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Points: 51
Hello all,

Have read this forum for several months and have learned a lot. Recently took the plunge and bought a 3 layer zip cover 100% natural talalay configuration on a wood platform with slats about 2 1/2 inches apart. Have invested more than 2K so far in this setup.

The problem is that I can't find a layer arrangement that works. I've learned that I need a soft layer up top or I wake with muscle pain, but then it gives me back pain. The firmer configurations also cause back pain. I do not ordinarily suffer from back pain, so it is definitely from the mattress. I did not buy from flo beds so cannot try their zoned approach.  I weigh less than 120 lbs.

My last best bed was an old spring air back supporter. I believe they were made with extra springs in the middle, or a different spring configuration to support the middle of the body, lower back and hips. It was a wonderful bed and they just don't make them like that anymore, as you all know. I researched an enormous amount to find a modern equivalent to the old spring air but couldn't find anything that was the same or even similar.  Supposedly some of the innersprings now put extra reinforcement in the middle with extra foam instead of wiring, but I couldn't really confirm that.  Also, with the new innersprings, there are a lot of offgassing issues, in fact I bought an S brand and had to return it due to the horrible odor that it had, and I have spoken with others who had the same problems. I also tried a cotton innerspring which was very uncomfortable, my husband said it felt like sleeping on the ground outside.

So, I turned to latex, as they felt great in the mattress stores, but am not having much luck here with them at home.

So what I am wondering is, perhaps the problem with latex is that each slab is the same consistency throughout, in other words, there is no extra reinforcement in the back area. So,

1) For those of you that switched to a ZONED latex, did it greatly improve the comfort and support in the back area?

2) Or has anyone found the right combination of softness on top-firmness for the back that they would recommend in latex or other combinations?

3) Or has anyone been happy recently with a comfortable yet supportive innerspring?

thanks!

This message was modified Sep 17, 2010 by jasmine
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #32 Oct 19, 2010 2:54 PM
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Points: 51
Yes!!!!! Gunman, thanks for the great info! You have been laugha huge help, you don't even know.

Were these old mattresses an open end offset coil, do you know? Or pocketed? They didn't feel like they were pocketed, but don't know.

If 540 or 480 was the coil count for a full, what would be the equivalent for a queen?

Also, they had an almost trampoline like feeling to them, was this because the fiber layers were attached to the spring edges properly, instead of shoehorned into the covers like they supposedly are in beds today? Or were mattresses made using different methods back then?

And finally, the new Spring Air mattresses use similar or same spring systems, but having found one in a local shop here, they don't feel anything like the old ones, and someone told me they are not anything like the old ones. Do you happen to have any info on the new Spring Air mattresses compared to the old? quality?, etc.

Thanks again!

This message was modified Oct 20, 2010 by jasmine
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #33 Oct 19, 2010 3:56 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
Gunman, what do you think of the Sealy Posturetech coil system?  The Reserve queen one I have has 782 14 gauge coils.  Plus, the outer edge is foam, so the effective coil count might be even higher.

Are that many coils of 14 gauge possibly too much?  Seems almost too firm (being interlaced as well) to really provide much in the way of body conforming comfort.

Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #34 Oct 20, 2010 4:31 PM
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Points: 51
Hey Sandman,

sorry I'm not gunman, hope he answers again! 

That reserve level is supposedly the best spring system they have for the money....have heard that type spring system it is probably more comfortable for back sleepers, but can work for side sleepers with toppers.

This message was modified Oct 20, 2010 by jasmine
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #35 Oct 22, 2010 12:30 AM
Joined: Dec 31, 2009
Points: 35
Jasmine, I could have written pretty much your whole thread and empathize completely with you. I think you're likely better off with springs so good that you were able to return the latex. Am still on the search for a bed after painful (and expensive) failed latex attempts and wish I had never given up my two-sided S&F bed from the late 1990s. If only I knew then what I know now.
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #36 Oct 22, 2010 4:07 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
When I talked to the guy at Bay beds, he told me that one of the most common constructions of mattress that he made was latex over innersprings. He also makes all foam beds as well but his innerspring construction is his most common. I called him just now just to confirm what he told me and he said that he typically used individual coils either 15.5, 14.5, or 13.5 guage (customer's choice) and he had different ILD's of latex he could put over them again depending on choice. He also can make zoned coils but he said he also has other ways of zoning that he uses more commonly. Asked him about polyfoam and again he said he could make (or avoid) pretty much whatever people wanted. He typically uses different quilted covers including organic cotton/wool. I believe he also does "layer exchanges"

There are also many "custom mattress manufacturers" who will make a bed to your order using any type of spring or comfort layers you may want. They are usually more than willing to talk about what may suit you best and their differing levels of advice and expertise is free.

I didn't get into it with him this time but when I talked to him before his prices were very reasonable ... including his shipping charges. In other words he's a "make your own" with innersprings kind of guy. FWIW

Phoenix

This message was modified Oct 22, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #37 Oct 22, 2010 4:52 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
Here's another one that I thought looked interesting but I haven't talked to them or done any research on them other than looking through most of their website to see what options they offered.

sterlingsleep

Phoenix

This message was modified Oct 22, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #38 Oct 25, 2010 11:12 PM
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Points: 53
Hi Jasmine,

I haven't been to this forum in many months, but just decided to have  a look today. Perhaps you've already figured out what you need. I have posts from a year plus ago explaining the configuration that works best for me. But I'll repost briefly here again. Also if this comes through in one long paragraph, I apologize.  Last few times I posted a year or so ago I couldn't figure out a way to fix (happened when I changed browsers)

Anyway, I'm 5" 51/2 " and weigh 128-130 pounds. Due to lots of pain issues, I need a bed that's very soft on top, but also firm support. I bought a Flobeds natural talalay (3 layers of 3" each with a soft 1" convoluted topper piece over everything) and the combination that has worked best for me is a soft top layer, followed by 2 firm layers underneath. I would like it even a bit softer but if I put a medium under the soft, it's not supportive enough. The other side of the bed has 2 mediums with an extra-firm underneath. I prefer that if I"m lying on my back but can't sleep on my side on it (which is how I sleep on most of the time). All the layers are in the middle of their range for the firmness rating (see their website as I don't remember them all now, except that the soft one is 22 ILD)

I would prefer to sleep with my old wool fleece pad on top as it was great for temperature control, but it makes the top too firm for me. I use a thin cotton mattress pad and all cotton or cotton/bamboo sheets (not high thread counts). I tried Flobeds latex pillows but have gone back to my down pillow.

 

Hope this helps and that you find the combination that works for you.

Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #39 Oct 25, 2010 11:14 PM
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Points: 53
PS I did try the Flobeds zoned system but did not care for it, although some folks love it. 
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #40 Oct 27, 2010 3:18 PM
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Points: 51
cityskies, thanks for your post. saw some of your posts in some searches and thought at the time that we were having similar experiences. i think i'm in mourning for my old mattress and think of it so fondly now, winkoh well. yes if i had only known then what i know now. it's amazing how much a bed can affect ones' quality of life. please let us know if you find something that works for you.

phoenix, thanks for the bed maker references. i will look at them. don't know if they are this way, but most of the custom mattress makers i have found do not allow returns, which gives me second thoughts as one never knows how a bed will work, but i'm at the point where i might just have to purchase a non-refundable bed anyway. i've already lost hundreds of $ and still don't have a mattress.

linda, thanks for what worked for you and i believe that a firmer config would have worked for me as well, if i ever try latex again, which is a big 'if", that is what i would do. sort of once burned, twice shy on latex right now but may give it another try. first i have to recover from my months long latex wrestling match. that wore me out!wink

i'm looking for 2 things: a comfortable bed, and one that is reasonably non-toxic. hard to find, the non toxic especially. am currently sleeping on a doubled over fiber bed on top of a thin wool pad on top of an $18 cheap piece paper thin mushy piece of foam on top of a wood frame. believe it or not, even though it is not real comfortable, it still feels better on my back than the latex, so that tells me I need firmer. 

am still in the market for a mattress. would like to put an end to this soon, before it puts an end to me!sad

This message was modified Oct 27, 2010 by jasmine
Re: Latex - getting it right?
Reply #41 Oct 27, 2010 5:37 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
I am going to say something here which I'm sure will be pretty controversial ... but here goes anyway.

I am convinced that the whole belief system that surrounds the "firm/soft" idea has serious flaws in many cases ... particularly as it is usually applied. The idea that "firmer" means "more supportive" I think has led to as many back and pressure issues as the other way around. While this belief may hold true in regards to some of the materials that are used these days (particularly poly), I think that the choices that are available now do not require the same level of "tradeoffs" that most people believe are necessary to relieve both pain and pressure issues. Usually when someone feels pain in their lower back ... the automatic assumption is "I need firmer". I do not believe this is always the case ... especially with relatively high resilience materials such as latex.

Rather than thinking in terms of "support" which too easily is mistaken for firmness in the comfort layers, why not think in terms of "spinal alignment"? I believe that if someone was fully aligned 4" deep into a mattress that it would provide the same benefits as being fully aligned 1" into the mattress. This is of course assuming that in both cases that there was also support in the "recessed areas" of the body. Someone who is only "supported" at certain "points" of the mattress (hips for example) may be actually lacking the proper support in the more recessed areas (waist or small of the back for example) and end up with back pain caused by the misalignment created by too firm a mattress. I believe that true support comes from a mattress' ability to allow BOTH enough sinking in to distribute pressure AND enough resistance and/or pushback to create proper spinal alinment in all sleeping positions. In other words the perfect mattress would evenly distribute pressure (solve pressure issues) at the exact "sinking in depth" of each part of the body that would also lead to perfect alignment in all sleeping positions.

This combination of pressure distribution and correct alignment is created by a COMBINATION of ild, support factor, and resilience of both the materials used and the mattress as a whole. In the case of latex (and other materials), this combination is "built in" to the material itself. In the case of a spring/stuffing mattress, this combination comes from a combination of materials (the springs or underlying support layers "push back" through the comfort layers as the more passive stuffing of the comfort layers has little resilience on its own). I believe that this is why a mattress with "stuffing" needs some degree of body impression combined with the correct resilience of an innerspring to accomplish this combination of "even pressure distribution" and "evenly distributed support" at the correct depth (proper spinal alignment). This combination is also dependent on the "progressive resilience" qualities of a material and/or mattress as a whole. In other words the "pushback" increases with depth to different degrees in different materials and/or combinations and it is this "response curve" that leads to the "range" of correct alignment and pressure relief that can provide pressure relief and alignment in different sleeping positions.

One of the issues rarely discussed in connection to this is body proportion. Someone with a more extreme difference between their hip measurements, waist measurement, and shoulder measurement (some points of the body "stick out" much more than others in certain positions) would need to be able to sink into a mattress more than someone who had a more "straight line" set of measurements to create even support in the correct position. This would also be important in connection with the percentage of body weight that was pressing down on each "point" (hips usually carry the greatest percentage of body weight). In most people, the shoulders are the widest part of the body but they carry much less weight than the hips. This means they usually need to sink in more than the hips (speaking of side sleeping here) before the mattress materials and/or construction "stops" the sinking in process for both hips and shoulder at the proper depth for each to create alignment while "pushing back" on the thinner parts for support. This can be accomplished though the ild/support factor/resilience qualities of a material such as latex or by the mattress construction as a whole. If the "response curve" of a mattress material or construction doesn't provide a big enough "range" for a particular person, then zoning of course can be used to accomplish this. Typical zoning however may not be enough in these more extreme circumstances as the difference in zones if often quite small. In this case, "constructed zoning" as opposed to "built in zoning" may be needed.

One of the people who understands/believes this is here http://www.customsleepdesign.com/

While he is by no means the only one who I talked to that understood/believed this and also incorporated it into "mattress building", he is one of the few that is also using a "layered process" with a zip cover and has layer exchanges and where these ideas (and a detailed analysis of body shape/weight) are a fundamental part of how he builds a mattress. I have mentioned him before in previous links and he is the one that used to be a VP of Latex International so he knows his latex.

I had an interesting experience last night to illustrate some of this. I went to bed quite late and was very tired and was laying on my side just "letting go" and falling asleep. While I was laying there, I noticed something I had never noticed before and that was that I could feel the mattress "pushing back" on my waist while I was completely relaxed (using a relaxation technique). It was a very unusual feeling as I couldn't remember ever having felt anything quite like it to that degree before and yet there was absolutely no pressure on my hips (which I am sensitive to). Part of why I chose a softer mattress was because both of us have quite a "differential" between our hip/waist/shoulder measurements and that a firmer mattress could too easily cause both pressure issues ... and areas where there was not enough resilience in the mattress to "evenly support" along the length of our body at the correct spinal alignment.

So to summarize ... with the choices available today (different types of materials ... including a wider range of latex materials ...and innersprings with a wider range of qualities), conventional wisdom and beliefs which at one time may have been more valid and even originated from the "limitations" of mattress construction may not be quite so valid anymore.

Phoenix

This message was modified Oct 27, 2010 by Phoenix

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