Just bought a new Flobeds
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I just purchased a new FloBeds. It is the 100% natural Talalay 4 layer mattresses. The top most layer being a soft egg crate 2" piece of Talalay. I purchased the following configuration. On the left side of the bed I have a median top layer, firm middle layer, and extra firm bottom layer. On the right side the top layer is firm, the second layer is extra firm, and the bottom layer is extra firm. I felt that this should give me an opportunity to switch the layers around and come up with the configuration that will work the best for my 6' 2" 210 pound frame. It has been quite a wrestling match, reading all the different descriptions that various people like, when it comes to firmness layers. You also run into this with some of the websites. No two people seem to consider this the same way. So I'm just going to have to experiment. This is one of the main reasons that I went with FloBeds. They have the most liberal exchange policy coupled with a generous return policy. They definitely get more money than some of the other sites. But when you're purchasing something this expensive from the Internet, and cannot lay on it, feel it, look at it, and even smell it, it's good to have a situation where you can make corrections at a nominal expense. Given the fact that FloBeds has an excellent reputation with the BBB, and Dave and Dewey Turner are excellent people to do business with, it just seemed to make good sense to me to consider the extra cost as an insurance policy. One last point I would like to make. I just realize that I have been misspelling FloBeds name. I had been misspelling it "FlowBeds." Wrong! It is spelled FloBeds.com. I hope I have not misdirected anyone. It will probably take about a week to get this bed in my home, set up, and slept on. When I have had an opportunity to do this I will be sure to post back and let you know what my experiences are, as I know how confusing this kind of a purchase can be. This message was modified Sep 22, 2009 by eagle2
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Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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For anyone who has been following this thread you know that I acquired a firm piece of blended latex from FlowBeds to try out. I have found that for me the all natural 100% botanically grown latex feels better as opposed to the blended product. I believe the reason for this is the fact that the natural latex is denser. My one piece of blended is rated a 32 ILD firm. And while the surface tension of the latex is slightly firmer than the medium piece of all natural rated 28 ILD, when I am laying on it I have found, that for me, while they are quite similar, the natural has a more supportive feel due to the density of the material. Therefore I have changed my bed back to an all natural configuration. |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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Just thought I would add a side note to my ongoing experience with my FlowBed. I had requested an exchange of my firm piece of blended latex, for a firm piece of all natural latex. I was just comparing the shipping weight for the blended piece of latex compared to the shipping weight for the all natural that was shipped yesterday. There is a 7.6 pound differential between the blended and the natural. The shipping box for the natural weights 31 pounds, the shipped box for the blended weight 23.4 pounds. This is due to the difference in density between the blended piece and the all natural piece, both of them being rated Firm with an ILD of 32. This is the point I was trying to make with the PDFs that I posted from the Polyurethane Foam Association in my thread "What is more important ILD or Density of foam?". The way ILD is measured, and the density of the foam, are two different things. It would be very helpful if the people selling latex would give both the ILD measurement and the density measurement of the various types of foam. |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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Eagle, I remember that flobeds told me that the 100% natural was also a bit thicker than the blended. So. that might account for some, but not all, of the difference in weight. I believe sleepez told me once that the blended and 100% natural had the same density. Could have been someone that did not know and just threw out an answer. It might be worth calling Latex International to see if there really is a density diffrerence and how much. It could also be that every batch might be a bit different. Hard to see that accounting for the difference you have though. |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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sandman wrote: Eagle, I remember that flobeds told me that the 100% natural was also a bit thicker than the blended. So. that might account for some, but not all, of the difference in weight. I believe sleepez told me once that the blended and 100% natural had the same density. Could have been someone that did not know and just threw out an answer. It might be worth calling Latex International to see if there really is a density diffrerence and how much. It could also be that every batch might be a bit different. Hard to see that accounting for the difference you have though. Sandman: I understand your confusion and reluctance to accept at face value this evaluation regarding density between blended and natural latex. However, I would be very hesitant to accept SleepEZ's statement that there is no difference as they seem to prefer blended. As you can see on their website blended is somewhat cheaper than natural. A 3 inch California King piece of natural cost $485, a blended piece of California King 3" piece costs $441. It is interesting to note that on there web site for individual pieces they quote 3" but when they are talking about their mattresses and the thickness of the various pieces they talk in terms of 2.8". I don't know what's going on there. The variance in height that was referred to is correct. Dave Turner told me that when the latex is poured at Latex International that the normal manufacture process for blended is approximate 5.6 inches thick and for natural is a full 6 inches. They then slice the 6 inch piece at FlowBeds to make two 3 inch pieces of natural. The 5.6 inch blended piece is then sliced as two 2.8 inch pieces. Since I did not want to have a dip in the height differential between the natural on one side of my bed and the blended piece on the other side of my bed FloBeds found a damaged piece of blended and was able to cut for me a 3 inch piece of blended. As a consequence this allowed me to compare the shipping weights of two identically thick pieces of latex as I reported in my post above. There is nothing wrong with blended latex. It will make an excellent bed. But there definitely is a difference in density between natural and blended latex, at least there is between the two pieces that I received from FlowBeds that were manufactured by Latex International. Trust me. This whole business about density is quite important, it seems to me. And very well could account for all the difficulties that everybody is having trying to buy individual pieces of latex and get a comparison as they try to build their own beds. If you're buying polyurethane foam, it is pretty standard in the industry to talk in terms of density weights, as in so many pounds per cubic foot. This is a great help in determining the ability of foam to support weight. ILD is an important consideration, but as in so many things in life, only one consideration. It should not be, "The end all be all" of selecting latex. It is a rough indicator, and as such, quite helpful, " for comparing between different pieces of latex regarding firmness. But surface firmness, and density support, are two different things! The PDFs I posted tell-all about it. This message was modified Dec 19, 2009 by eagle2
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Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
| Eagle, I am not reluctant to accept it, but it would be nice to have some definitive data from LI on what the densities of the 2 different latexes are. Based on your experience, I believe they are different. I am sure sleepez is wrong (or at least the person I spoke to). However, even when I talked to flobeds originally, I got the impression that there were no significant performance differences between the 2. Based on your experience, I think there are performance differences due to the density difference. That does not mean that either one is necessarily better or worse. Just different. |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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sandman wrote: Eagle, I am not reluctant to accept it, but it would be nice to have some definitive data from LI on what the densities of the 2 different latexes are. Based on your experience, I believe they are different. I am sure sleepez is wrong (or at least the person I spoke to). However, even when I talked to flobeds originally, I got the impression that there were no significant performance differences between the 2. Based on your experience, I think there are performance differences due to the density difference. That does not mean that either one is necessarily better or worse. Just different. Sandman said: "That does not mean that either one is necessarily better or worse. Just different." I agree!  |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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Yes, but I agree with you that it would be nice to have more information on the performance differences. Perhaps too hard to quantify and too subjective. Even some generalties like 100% natural is denser so it should have more suport for heavier people. Or blended less dense so it is more plush feeling, etc. There seems to be little information out there to make an informed decision with. Tthe party line that I seem to have heard is that the performance in basically the same. This message was modified Dec 19, 2009 by sandman
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Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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sandman wrote: Yes, but I agree with you that it would be nice to have more information on the performance differences. Perhaps too hard to quantify and too subjective. Even some generalties like 100% natural is denser so it should have more suport for heavier people. Or blended less dense so it is more plush feeling, etc. There seems to be little information out there to make an informed decision with. Tthe party line that I seem to have heard is that the performance in basically the same. Sandman: My personal belief is that blended latex exists because it is less expensive to produce. When you stop to think about it 70% of this product is petrochemical. Petrochemicals can be manufactured and purchased at a much reduced price over natural, from everything I can find on the Internet about this subject. Plus the fact that you do not have the potential international difficulties acquiring materials for a petrochemical product as opposed to a rubber tree product. When you look at history synthetic rubber came from the fact that the Japanese during World War II cut off all availability of natural rubber. The opposing warring powers had to come up with a solution to this lack of essential resource. So they developed synthetic rubber. As a child living in California I remember this quite well. To begin with synthetic rubber was a very poor product. We used to make guns made out of sticks that would fire a piece of rubber cut from an old inner tube. The synthetic rubber inner tubes were pathetic. They had almost no stretch to them and thus the rubber bands we got from them had no "firepower" to them. The greatest thing was to be able to find an old natural rubber inner tube, to us they were like gold. Principal thing that we have to keep in mind about latex mattresses is the more dense the material, and the more of this material that is in the product, the more support it should have. I believe we would probably find that Dunlop has one of the higher rates of density. I still believe that Dunlop has a very important role to play in mattresses, primarily as a support core material. But since, as far as I know, there is no Dunlop produced in the USA, except under license by Latex International for which they must pay a fee, and thus do not promote it, but rather promote their own produced Talalay,I do not believe were going to see a lot of Dunlop promoted. It is available from several manufacturers of mattresses. Namely, Savvy Rest, SleepEZ, Habitat, and I'm sure there are others. But density definitely matters. And I am like you, I find it most disconcerting that the latex industry does not seem to want to talk about this factor very much. I wonder why? |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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I agree that the reason is probably that it is cheaper to make, so perhaps they can build in a larger profit margin. There may not be enough 100% natural to go around, so they have to sell a fair amount of synthetic as well to meet the demand. I wonder if they can make the sythentic with the same density as the natural, but choose not to because it would cost more? The blend is still a pretty good product, equal to or better than most (if not all) of the foams they put in the mass produced mattresses. However, if you are heavier and looking for more suport, the denser 100% natural is probably "better" than the blended (of course that is subjective - you would need blind tests to really find out what people prefer). |
Re: Just bought a new Flobeds
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One of the reasons that I requested a blended piece of firm latex, was to have my own personal very small test between it and all natural. I found that the blended piece of firm felt quite similar to the medium piece of natural. And keep this in mind about my natural piece of medium latex. It is on the lower end of the range for medium. It's actual ILD rated by Latex International was 26.2, as I recall. FlowBeds had actually put a sticker on it saying that it was 28 ILD. The medium rating for natural is 26 to 30 ILD. So my piece is at the very bottom of the medium-range and only 2 pounds from the top of the natural soft range. The feeling that I had, upon first laying on the blended piece, was that it felt a little firmer than the medium piece. But after laying on them for several minutes it seemed to me that the medium piece of natural felt every bit as supportive as the firm piece of blended. Now as you say this is entirely subjective. But as I have suggested before, if I were purchasing a blended mattress today, I would go for a higher ILD. For instance I have one side of my bed now in all natural that is firm/firm/extra firm. If I were purchasing this same bed in blended I would go with, extra firm/extra firm/extra firm. Since FlowBeds has such a liberal exchange policy I would feel quite safe in giving this configuration a try. This message was modified Dec 19, 2009 by eagle2
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