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I could use some advice on selecting a mattress topper. I’ve read many of the posts on this forum (great resource!) and here’s my very generalized ‘understanding’ of the difference between traditional memory foam and latex (Dunlop or Talalay): 1) You sleep IN a memory foam topper because memory foam is viscous and thus ‘flows’ whereas you sleep ON a Latex topper because it compresses underneath you rather than ‘flows’ away from body pressure. 2) Memory foam will sleep ‘hotter’ than Latex; though new types of memory foam such as Foamex’ Aerus will be ‘cooler’ than standard memory foam, and Latex International’s Celsion will maintain a consistent body temperature. 3) If the memory foam is too soft, it won’t provide much, if any, support (e.g., you bottom out). If a Latex foam is too hard/resilient, it might not alleviate pressure points. I’ve read that memory foam provides more support than Latex and I’ve read that Latex provides more support than memory foam. I would think that, in theory, memory foam could provide more support than Latex under ideal conditions (e.g., ideal mix of person’s weight, ILD of the foam and temperature). I’ve also read that memory foam is better at alleviating ‘pressure points’, but again, I don’t know if that is correct.
I ordered a Sealy Plush mattress form US Mattress in September and it is was way too soft (nothing like the comparable model I tried locally). I can’t return it, but I can exchange it, and I did, to a top of the line very firm Sealy: http://www.us-mattress.com/sealy-greenhurst-firm.html which I should get in a few weeks. Based upon the mattresses I've checked out locally, I know it is going to be so hard that it will not ‘fill up the space’ under my lumbar region when I sleep on my back (I side sleep too) and that I will want a bit more cushion/comfort. I’m 6’1”, 190 lbs and fit. However, I’ve also had 2 micro-discectomies at L5-S1 due to herniations and I definitely want lumbar support, and I’d like to have it be comfortable ;) I know that I don’t want to sink into my topper. I also know that I don’t want to sleep ‘hot’ as my body doesn’t seem to do a very good job of regulating temperature (e.g., when I go to bed I’ll be on top of the covers because I’m roasting, even though the room is under 65 degrees and my S.O. is buried under the covers because she’s freezing.) When I wake up in the morning, under the covers, I’ll be freezing. Here are the toppers I’ve considered: Aerus: I thought about getting an Aerus topper because they are not supposed to be as hot as traditional memory foam. However, I think I’d still have the problem of feeling that I’m ‘sinking in’ the topper. Energia: Supposedly, Energia foam feels like a cross between Latex and Memory Foam in that it combines the high resilience of Latex with the shape conforming properties of Memory Foam. It is made in 3, 4, and 5 lb densities, but only the 3lb/16IFD seems to be available. Best price is $239 for a 2” king. http://www.sleepwarehouse.com/energiamemoryfoam.aspx It is supposed to extremely durable, but it hasn’t been in use long enough for long-term ‘real use’ reviews. Celsion: LI’s temperature regulating Talalay Latex sounds perfect for me in regards to temperature sensitivity. However, I’m not sure if Latex will be able to fill in and support my lumbar region (or hips when I side-sleep). $250 for a King 1” http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/celsion_talalay_latex_toppers.html
NuForm: LI claims that you will experience the benefits of Talalay latex with a unique, slow recovery feel: Slowly cradles the body without the dense sinking, cave-like feel of visco-elastic foam Progressive recovery: returns to its original shape faster than visco to eliminate "cratering" 4x more breathable than leading polyurethane memory foam This sounds pretty darn good (no sinking feeling, somewhat breathable) if true. Habitat Furnishings trashed it, but I don’t know how unbiased they are. http://www.habitatfurnishings.com/latex_faqs.html. The bigger problem seems to be that no one makes a NuForm topper. Does anyone know if there are any NuForm toppers available? It does seem to be used as a comfort layer on some mattresses. Natural Latex: Because they are not viscous and don’t ‘flow’, they won’t really fill up or ‘conform’ to my shape, will they? Do they come close enough to conforming that they work fine? Do they do as good a job of alleviating pressure points as memory foam? If not, if you get the right resiliency do they do a decent job with pressure points? Any suggestions that you might have on the type of topper, thickness and density/ILD would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Dino PS...I wish I had found this site before I placed my original order…I probably would have gone with a ‘build your own’ foam mattress. However, the Sealy I just ordered as part of the exchange has a supposed comfort life of 12 years, so I figure I can get a topper to make it ‘just right’ ;) |
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Shovel99,
Thanks for the suggestions and tips on threads to read. Before I try mattress surgery, I think I'll try a topper or two.
Thanks again and best of luck getting your mattress to where you like it.
Dino |
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Phoenix,
Thanks for the replies and links (and also for posting your 'Pro's and Con's' thread which I read). I had called OK mattress yesterday and the person I spoke to said they do not have NuForm toppers, though from their website it looks like they took some of the exact wording from the NuForm info at LI). He then tried to sell me a latex topper. I'll call back on Monday and dig a little deeper. I had seen the Beloit site earlier today but I didn't get a chance to call. They definitely use NuForm in some of their mattresses, so I'll call them Monday. I'll ask about why they use it, and how, and try to get some info on density/ILD. If NuForm sounds great and it isn't too expensive, maybe I'll try to get them to sell me a topper. Whether Energia, NuForm, BASF Pluralux, etc., they all sound great, but they don't seem to be available in many products. One would think that if they were really great, they'd be more readily available and marketed like crazy. Maybe it's just the price issue and everyone want's 'green'. Personally, I don't have a problem with either 100% synthetics or blends, it all depends on whether the product does what it is supposed to do and the cost of it. I will definitely wait until I have slept on the new Sealy for a few weeks before ordering a topper, but I just couldn't wait to start gathering info!
HMMM... I might be able to change my comfort exchange order if I call first thing on Monday. However, I couldn't find a latex mattress on the US-Mattress site that wasn't going to be just as expensive, and most were more, than the Sealy Greenhurst Firm. I figured I'd probably end up getting a topper of my choosing whether I got an innerspring or latex mattress and don't want to spend a ton extra for a latex mattress and then spend even more for a new topper. They do have Eco-Sleep mattresses, and the Madison King is only $799 http://www.us-mattress.com/eco-rest-eco-l-8-variable.html However, Walmart sells another EcoSleep model from the same line (the Align) and it got terrible reviews (mainly about not expanding to the specified thickness) http://reviews.walmart.com/1336/13431007/ecosleep-10-cool-align-talalay-latex-mattress-reviews/reviews.html I hate to ask, but would you mind taking a loot at the memory foam and latex mattresses at US Mattress to see if there's anything under a $1,000 (King) that has a good base support layer? http://www.us-mattress.com/latex.html If there is, which do you think would be better:
Thanks so much for your generous help! Dino PS...There's a Sealy for about $50 more than the Greenhurst Firm called the Greenhurst LTD cushion Firm that has a layer of 1 1/2" memory foam instead of 1 1/2" of Marvelux. I went w/ the one w/out the memory foam b/c it is supposedly firmer and I want to avoid cavities/cratering. Greenhurst Firm: Quilt - Top of Mattress Comfort - Padding Layers LTD Cushion Firm: Quilt - Top of Mattress Comfort - Padding Layers |
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First, I will have to say you are going to sink into any topper. That is the point of using them. I assume you mean you don't want to sink in too much? From my experience, you will sink in the most in cooler/breathable memory foams, followed by lower density memory foams. I use a combination of some memory foam (lately just 1" 5lb. Sensus) and lower ILD talalay latex (19-24) over 32 latex directly over Sealy coils. I actually tried the Nuform once and did not really like it. It was too stiff and clay-like for my taste. Not sure if they have changed it since then. There might be a reason it has not really caught on. There is some debate as to whether Celsion is actually cooler. I tried it once and it seemed like it might be cooler for 1-2 hours, then it warmed up like regular latex. So, while I don't think there is much to lose (other than higher price), but not sure it adds much value. I would suggest you consider latex (probably talalay), since you don't seem to want to sink in a lot. It still provides pressure relief and support, and should not be as hot as some memory foams. Most people use toppers in the 19-28 range. However, some go even softer or firmer. It is such a matter of personal preference and a function of the underlying mattress, that it is hard to be real specific. Sleep like a bear has a lot of options (expensive though) and a 30 day return policy. Ideally you would be able to try something first, since most of us only find what is right by trial and error. You may want to try some latex mattresses to see if you like the general feel.
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Sandman,
Thanks....I've morphed into choosing between two mattresses for my exchange and I need to decide by tomorrow, so I started a new thread. |
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I'm going to reply to both threads here as it's a little difficult for me to go back and forth (get confused easily lol). Your comments about not wanting to "sink in" and sleeping hot pretty much rule out using memory foam as a top layer in a mattress. The Madison only has 2" latex so it needs a layer underneath that is not quite as firm to act as part of the comfort layer. It's sort of a compromise and given the feedback about the acella-flex not "coming back", I would tend to avoid it. Poly doesn't usually do well when it's compressed for a long period of time and these have almost certainly been shipped compressed from China where Classic brands has a factory. I took some time last night to "analyze" the construction of the greenhurst and it is surprisingly well constructed to suit your circumstances. I know that this comment may be surprising to many given my thoughts about "S" brands in general but my low opinion of them is generally more about the durability of the materials they use, what they charge for cheap polyfoam, and the general direction they are going. In some cases, their actual design (outside of materials used) is pretty good. In other cases their design is purely to cater to "what consumers think they want" and they are terrible (6 miles of poly over an innerspring) or to cater to a "store feel" without regard to what will happen after, but in this case the design is one of their better ones for someone like you. They are using 3 "technologies" all of which would help someone with your preferences and needs. First, they are using a form of "sandwiching" similar to one of the patent links I posted earlier with softer foam in between firmer foam. The softer foam has a higher sag factor which means it gets "firmer" with compression faster than the firmer foam outside. This is for someone that needs to sink in for alignment and support without sinking into the upper material as far (want a more "on top of the mattress" feeling). Next they are using "posture channels" which are a form of reverse zoning which allows your bony prominences to sink in further and puts the firmer posture channels under your lumbar and upper thigh (the depression below your butt when you lay on your back) for support. This is best for a back sleeper but has some side benefits as well. Finally they are using X7 zoning which reinforces the same idea as the posture channels but a little higher in the mattress. The bottom line ... and I hesitate to say this given that you have never laid on the mattress and theory is always trumped by experience ... it that this mattress may be very suitable to you in terms of what you have posted. I would still question the durability of some of the materials used and the price they charge you for these materials ... but in terms of design it may do surprisingly well for you. I would doubt that you would need more than a thin topper if you needed one at all. I would probably choose this one over the "memory foam version" although the memory foam version would allow you to sink in more (not "into" more on top which is why they put it deep). I don't think that is necessary given the rest of the construction and it likely wouldn't be as suitable for you. It's a tossup what would last longer between the marvelux or the memory foam (the only real difference) as they are not specific about either. Part of the problem with this kind of "analysis" is also that they are not specific and open enough about the foams they use so you have to "guess" from the descriptions what they could be (and so to some degree guess as to their durability, performance, and response). Personal experience would help confirm these "guesses". This is also why it is impossible to know how long this "good construction" will last as it looks like some of the foam is higher density HR foam which should last quite a while and some of it is lower density which may break down sooner. In any case, I don't see anything there in latex/poly that I would consider that was in your budget. If I was to get latex/poly, I would probably want a thicker latex layer so I could have a firmer support layer. More on some of your other comments later. This message was modified Dec 19, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, Thanks again. Acella Flex is marketed as being more resilient and durable (though compared to what I'm not sure!) but I couldn't find many specific reviews from actual users. I take it that your comment that you have heard that it 'does not come back' means that over time it compresses (i.e., loses some of its original resiliency) and does not return to its original shape/depth? Would that also mean that it becomes harder over time because it stays compressed? Would that mean that it would tend to crater or form dips where the foam has compressed? Would it be correct to say that the Madison would need to be opened up to put a 2 - 3" layer of 28ILD latex between the top layer (24ILD Ecosleep Talalay Latex) and the 6" of 33ILD Acella Flex? Or would that not really matter b/c the Acella Flex base layer is still going to compress/sag? Thanks again! Dino |
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Phoenix, My guess is that Sealy, and many 'name' brands, want to use proprietary names for their foams (and not provides specs) so that:
Unfortunately, it does make it harder for us consumers. One thing that I've liked in my two-day research of Latex/MF is that SOME companies/resellers are pretty transparent about what is in the product they are selling. Thanks again! Dino |
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The "rebranding" is a common tactic in the industry and is used on many levels. It is one of the "worst things" that the "S" companies have promoted with the "support" of the larger retailers who like to promote "exclusivity" in what they sell as part of their marketing hype. In the case of acella-flex though this is the "original" name. The acella-flex is an HR foam from Legget and Platt urethane division and is one of many what are called HR (high resiliency) poly foams that are being produced by the dozens of foam manufacturers around the world. In general they are much better than other polyfoams but this too depends on how they are manufactured and the actual chemicals used to make them. They can be made quite dense and yet very soft at the same time and some of them have properties similar to latex. Long term compression is just about the worst thing you can do to polyfoam and vacuum compression is worse than pressure compression. If a polyfoam, even a HR polyfoam ... is highly compressed for long periods of time it will often break down and lose some of it's qualities or not come back so easily. This depends to some degree on what type of compression is used and how long it was compressed. If it is compressed in China and then shipped on a boat and then sits in a warehouse for a long time ... it is not a good thing :). In normal use this would not happen to a high quality HR foam although it would still not likely last as long as latex. Poly in general will lose it's qualities long before latex and even before you get the "depressions" it is famous for (mostly lower quality poly), it will break down and lose it's properties meaning it will still look flat but have softer and firmer areas. By the time depressions appear, the process of breakdown is well advanced. If you did choose to put latex inside the ecosleep then you would need to do mattress surgery. If the acella-flex is still in good shape then it would be a decent base but I wouldn't go there with this model because the acella-flex is not quite as firm as I would choose as a base on a thicker mattress (part of the compromise they used). Ecosleep does make mattresses with thicker latex comfort layers, latex over springs, and all latex mattresses but I didn't see any at US-mattress and they are generally more expensive (The cassidy or sundance for example, both with 5" + 2" + 2" latex, would be around $1450). Their better models are more difficult to find but I did like them in general ... even with possible compression issues ... and at one point did a fair bit of research into them when I was looking for a mattress myself. Phoenix |
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You may get lucky this next go around by attempting to do your research, and are really digging in. But not to disappoint you, I probably invested over 1,000 hours online and in stores through only the first 15 or 16 mattresses and more to number 23 before giving up and going "surgery." So I wanted you to consider your next mattress as the base for DIY top layers. I don't mean to be discouraging, but I wouldn't be betting you are going to get it right in just one more try. The mattress makers are frauds and liars... and I have discovered that just swapping the order of two layers... or a single layer like 36 ILD on the bottom instead of 20 ILD on the bottom (of 4 layers)... made my mattress "too hard" and the bottom layer of 20 ILD was "just right." You won't get close to that kind of flexibility on the "guess" program. Just trying to keep you out of the expensive deep end.
Good luck. shovel/Paul |
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Phoenix, Thanks again. I think I'll stick w/ the Sealy Greenhurst Firm as it should hold up quite well and I'll just consider the extra cost to be an 'insurance policy', lol. I know that I'll have to wait until I sleep on it for a few weeks before deciding if I need a topper, and what I actually need it for. However, I'm pretty sure I'll get some type of topper and I'd like to continue my research. My guess is that I'll need a bit of 'pressure relief' along with a bit of support under my lumbar region. If I wanted to combine a latex topper (say 1" of Talatech) with a memory foam product (say 1" of Celsion or 1.5" of Aerus, which is quite inexpensive), would I get the benefits of the viscous property of the MF if I put it under the Talatech or would I put it on the top? As the thickness of the MF would be so thin, I would not 'sink in', but would probably bottom out and hit the Talatech. If that was the case, would I even get any benefit (as in comfort) from the MF.
Thanks again! Dino |