a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
So I still haven't made up my mind on what I want to do. But I am leaning towards trying to find a so-called 'good' firm coil mattress with minimal padding and purchasing separate toppers. I have gone through most all the threads, several more than once. I see some talk here and there about doing this, but there don't seem to be a lot of recommendations on what makes for a 'good' coil spring and who makes it. Can I have some advice on that topic? Second, I feel very insecure about the 2-3" topper recommendation. Even at my healthy, non-obese female weight I feel concerned about that 2-3" is not enough padding. It seems like a body would just sink through that amount and feel whatever is underneath. I'm a side sleeper and right now, more than the body depressions we've got going on in our current mattress, the hardness is what is killing me, especially in my hips. My hip bones protrude and so I really need some cush there. Maybe some assurance? Does anyone find they need to go thicker? thanks, i appreciate your putting up with my journey for comfort. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
LPAD wrote: So I still haven't made up my mind on what I want to do. But I am leaning towards trying to find a so-called 'good' firm coil mattress with minimal padding and purchasing separate toppers. I have gone through most all the threads, several more than once. I see some talk here and there about doing this, but there don't seem to be a lot of recommendations on what makes for a 'good' coil spring and who makes it. Can I have some advice on that topic? Second, I feel very insecure about the 2-3" topper recommendation. Even at my healthy, non-obese female weight I feel concerned about that 2-3" is not enough padding. It seems like a body would just sink through that amount and feel whatever is underneath. I'm a side sleeper and right now, more than the body depressions we've got going on in our current mattress, the hardness is what is killing me, especially in my hips. My hip bones protrude and so I really need some cush there. Maybe some assurance? Does anyone find they need to go thicker? thanks, i appreciate your putting up with my journey for comfort.
For example, I have 1" of super hard foam above my springs, then 1" of firm foam, then 1" of medium foam... THEN 2-3 inches of soft foam or other padding for comfort. So all together I am using about 5-6" of foam above my springs. If you don't use springs then you will need a 4-6" base of good quality firm foam as a base instead of springs. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
Exactly! And, I even have less than that. My husband is 6' 1" and over 200 lbs. and he has no problems with sinking in or feeling the coils. Over my LuraFlex coils I only have a total of 3 inches of foam and the fiberfil quilted cover. My husband even has about a half inch less. And, we have no issues with it not being able to support our bodies or sinking in too far. I tried putting a few inches of topper and it was TOO soft. Last night I tried the Dream Coil which is about an inch or so of PU foam and I like the way that one feels. But even without it, our bed feels just fine with 3 inches of latex and foam over the coils. ************************************************* jimsocal wrote: Please understand that the "no more than 2-3 inches" rule is for SOFT topper material, not for overall foam. </p><p>For example, I have 1" of super hard foam above my springs, then 1" of firm foam, then 1" of medium foam... THEN 2-3 inches of soft foam or other padding for comfort.</p><p>So all together I am using about 5-6" of foam above my springs. </p><p>If you don't use springs then you will need a 4-6" base of good quality firm foam as a base instead of springs. This message was modified Mar 3, 2008 by BeddyBye
|
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
thanks everyone. No, we don't have originalmattress near us. I looked at the Leggett Platt page however it would have been nice had I found a place where it shows what products use their springs. I'm sorry to say I still don't exactly know what defines a 'good' coil spring mattress as far as specifications go. Am I to understand that none of the big S companies offer such a thing (if you buy one with minimal padding)? I can't afford a Shifman or other handmade mattress. The only thing I think I understand is to stay away from the Simmons pocket coil system. Our old S/F mattress still feels uber-firm to me, just sags, which I would think is mostly because of the padding failure but who knows. I was hoping to find a brand that is readily available. If anyone has more input on this I'd still appreciate it. I still haven't made my mind up which way I'm going to go. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
I would say that almost all mattresses are made with Leggett & Platt coil systems, as well as other components. Sure, there are some like McRoskey who manufacture their own. But, most companies use those made by L&P. And, they also make the pocketed coils for Simmons. The mattress companies won't necessarily show the name Leggett & Platt. You can always ask the mattress salesperson (IF they even know!) Here is something I found online: "Leggett & Platt makes innersprings for nearly all of the mattress companies, so essentially it is the same coil system in all of them. Leggett & Platt is a diversified manufacturer that conceives, designs and produces a broad variety of engineered components and products for customers worldwide. While Leggett & Platt may not be a familiar name to you, chances are you sleep on a bed made with Leggett components - box spring, innerspring, fiber comfort layers; relax in a recliner that has an L&P motion mechanism powering it; shop in stores that have products displayed on shelving made by L&P; barbeque on a grill that's made up of Leggett cast aluminum - in short, Leggett products are all around you." Types of coils There are four different types of mattress coils: Bonnell coils are the oldest and most common. First adapted from buggy seat springs of the 19th century, they are still prevalent in less expensive mattresses. Bonnell coils are hourglass-shaped, and the ends of the wire are knotted or wrapped around the top and bottom circular portion of the coil and self-tied. Marshall coils, also called "pocketed coils," are each wrapped in a fabric encasement and usually are tempered, or in the case of the Simmons Beautyrest carbon magnesium is added. Some manufacturers pre-compress these coils, which makes the mattress firmer and allows for motion separation between the sides of the bed. Offset coils are designed to hinge, thus conforming to body shape. They are very sturdy, stable innersprings that provide great support. (Open offset is called LuraFlex) Continuous coils, or Mira-coils, work by a hinging effect, similar to that of offset coils. In a basic sense a continuous coil is simply that, one continuous coil in and up and down fashion forming one row (usually from head to toe) of what appear to be individual coils. The advantages of how firm a support the continuous coil provides it is somewhat tempered with the 'noise' associated from a typical mira coil unit. (Serta uses these) LPAD wrote: thanks everyone.<BR><BR>No, we don't have originalmattress near us. I looked at the Leggett Platt page however it would have been nice had I found a place where it shows what products use their springs. I'm sorry to say I still don't exactly know what defines a 'good' coil spring mattress as far as specifications go. Am I to understand that none of the big S companies offer such a thing (if you buy one with minimal padding)? I can't afford a Shifman or other handmade mattress. The only thing I think I understand is to stay away from the Simmons pocket coil system.<BR><BR>Our old S/F mattress still feels uber-firm to me, just sags, which I would think is mostly because of the padding failure but who knows.<BR><BR>I was hoping to find a brand that is readily available. If anyone has more input on this I'd still appreciate it. I still haven't made my mind up which way I'm going to go. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
I was in this same quandry when I had to return my latex mattress and buy an innerspring. Basically they are all crap and once I came to that conclusion I decided to buy the one that felt the most comfortable and just concern myself with getting a well constructed innerspring unit so I would have something durable to reconstruct the mattress on when the time came in about three or four years. No two stores sell the same mattress under the same name, so it's impossible to recommend anything by name. You just have to shop somewhere with a good reputation, tell the salesperson what you want and let them direct you to it. I bought a Spring Air--not because I believe it's better than another brand's comparable mattress. Mainly because I slept on one for 20 years and the innerspring unit held up very well. And I have to say, they may use the same crappy foam as everyone else, but all things being equal, they do know how to finish a mattress very nicely. Too bad I'm going to have to cut it open in a couple of years, but in the meantime, it sure is pretty. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
Sigh. Isn't it a shame that these mattress companies know how to appeal to our desire for something "pretty", at least from the outside. I've noticed that most of the Big S companies use a jersey-like fabric now more than the shinier traditional jacquard brocade that I've been used to. It just doesn't seem as "rich looking". So, here I am standing and looking at a mattress with this new-fanged softer ticking thinking "Noooooo, this just doesn't look like "quality" to me. And, yet inside it could be built VERY well. (if it weren't from a Big S company, that is:) And, the one with the fancy jacquard ticking across the room might look better to me...and yet inside it could be JUNK! Sigh. I guess they're right about not judging a book by its cover. cloud9 wrote: I was in this same quandry when I had to return my latex mattress and buy an innerspring. Basically they are all crap and once I came to that conclusion I decided to buy the one that felt the most comfortable and just concern myself with getting a well constructed innerspring unit so I would have something durable to reconstruct the mattress on when the time came in about three or four years.</p><p>No two stores sell the same mattress under the same name, so it's impossible to recommend anything by name. You just have to shop somewhere with a good reputation, tell the salesperson what you want and let them direct you to it. I bought a Spring Air--not because I believe it's better than another brand's comparable mattress. Mainly because I slept on one for 20 years and the innerspring unit held up very well. And I have to say, they may use the same crappy foam as everyone else, but all things being equal, they do know how to finish a mattress very nicely. Too bad I'm going to have to cut it open in a couple of years, but in the meantime, it sure is pretty. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
BeddyBye wrote: I would say that almost all mattresses are made with Leggett & Platt coil systems, as well as other components. Sure, there are some like McRoskey who manufacture their own. But, most companies use those made by L&P. And, they also make the pocketed coils for Simmons. The mattress companies won't necessarily show the name Leggett & Platt. You can always ask the mattress salesperson (IF they even know!) Here is something I found online: The statement that Leggett makes coils for Simmons and Sealy is incorrect. I have personally been in 3 different Simmons factories and seen, with my own eyes, them making their own coils. Also, Sealy makes their own coils in their metal plant (I can't remember where it is at the moment). Those are the 2 major companies who make their own coils and, yes, Leggett makes most of the rest of the manufacturers coils for them."Leggett & Platt makes innersprings for nearly all of the mattress companies, so essentially it is the same coil system in all of them. Leggett & Platt is a diversified manufacturer that conceives, designs and produces a broad variety of engineered components and products for customers worldwide. While Leggett & Platt may not be a familiar name to you, chances are you sleep on a bed made with Leggett components - box spring, innerspring, fiber comfort layers; relax in a recliner that has an L&P motion mechanism powering it; shop in stores that have products displayed on shelving made by L&P; barbeque on a grill that's made up of Leggett cast aluminum - in short, Leggett products are all around you." Types of coils There are four different types of mattress coils: Bonnell coils are the oldest and most common. First adapted from buggy seat springs of the 19th century, they are still prevalent in less expensive mattresses. Bonnell coils are hourglass-shaped, and the ends of the wire are knotted or wrapped around the top and bottom circular portion of the coil and self-tied. Marshall coils, also called "pocketed coils," are each wrapped in a fabric encasement and usually are tempered, or in the case of the Simmons Beautyrest carbon magnesium is added. Some manufacturers pre-compress these coils, which makes the mattress firmer and allows for motion separation between the sides of the bed. Offset coils are designed to hinge, thus conforming to body shape. They are very sturdy, stable innersprings that provide great support. (Open offset is called LuraFlex) Continuous coils, or Mira-coils, work by a hinging effect, similar to that of offset coils. In a basic sense a continuous coil is simply that, one continuous coil in and up and down fashion forming one row (usually from head to toe) of what appear to be individual coils. The advantages of how firm a support the continuous coil provides it is somewhat tempered with the 'noise' associated from a typical mira coil unit. (Serta uses these) The statement that all the coils are the same because they are made by the same company is akin to saying all Chevrolet cars are the same because they are made by the same company. Leggett makes coils, to spec, for most of the major companies in the US. "TO SPEC" being the most important phrase in this statement. Serta has their own coil made by Leggett, but Serta holds a patent on that particular coil system, so no other company can use it. Did you know that Leggett makes over 400 different coil systems? Additionally, you need to keep in mind that there may be multiple ways to make the exact same type of coil! Looking at a Marshall coil (pocketed coil). Simmons, in their factories, receives a huge spool of 15.5 gauge and 13.5 gauge wire. This wire has been electrically "tempered" before shipping. Once in their factory, they have this really cool machine that makes their "Power Pocketed" coil. Upside is that it is a "Power Pocketed" coil, which means a 12 coil is pocketed into a 9" pocket, making the coil a bit more responsive. Downside is that when you bent tempered metal, it re-arranges the molecules and eliminates the tempering effect. Let's look at the same type of coil made for the Restonic "Grand Palais" mattresses. These coils are made by Leggett. Basically the same steps are taken except for the "Power Pocketing", that is a patent currently held by Simmons. One major difference is that the coil made for Restonic is electronically tempered after it is formed into a coil. This makes for more consistent and more durable coils. Simmons will have a higher coil count with slightly weaker, more responsive coils and Restonic will have a lower coil count with slightly stronger coils. Your durability and support will roughly balance out, but the two beds will have completely different comfort levels, assuming everything else (foam layers) are the same. Bonnell coils are the most common TYPE of coil, but there are literally 40 different sizes of Bonnell coils, that I am aware of, and each of those are available in a multitude of different coil counts. What you are calling "Offset" coils, again, needs a bit more detail. First of all, it seems, by your statement, that you are slightly biased to this type of coil, without reason. There are quite a few different designs on the "Offset" coil and there are a few different ways these can be used in a bed. Looking at Sealy, they use a "Double Offset" coil, meaning it has a slightly better "hinging" action and they run the coils from head to toe with the helicoil lacing side to side. Now looking at Spring Air, using a completely different design on the "offset" coil, runs them side to side while the helicoils run from head to foot. Some people say the lacing running side to side makes for more body impressions (these are the people who run them head to foot) and some people say that running them head to foot makes for more sagging (these are the people who run them side to side). Your continuous coil systems are simply a variation of the offset coil system and in the more than 15 years of selling mattresses, I have found neither benefit nor disadvantage this type of coil nor any other coil system. Bottom line is there are many, many different kinds of coils, not all made by Leggett. Each coil system makes that mattress feel a bit different and react differently. If you were to line up all the coil systems, say 400, side by side and put the exact same amount of padding on each one of them, you would have 400 different comfort levels. I tell my customers to buy a bed based on comfort and comfort alone and when they do this, they are usually successful. When my customers try to over think the process, that is when we usually have to exchange the mattress for them. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
You're correct, Mattressman. I was just saying that Leggett and Platt make a lot of coils and I just copied and pasted a statement. But, as you said, there are numerous types of coils and not all mattresses are created equal from the inside out in that regard. That said, a person could drive themselves crazy trying to figure it all out. My advice is just to go with what feels good to YOU and be less concerned with coil types, count and guages. I would be more worried about the kinds of cheap foams that are placed OVER those coils. I think ultimately this is what does most of the damage on our mattresses AND our bodies. THEMATTRESSMAN wrote: The statement that Leggett makes coils for Simmons and Sealy is incorrect. I have personally been in 3 different Simmons factories and seen, with my own eyes, them making their own coils. Also, Sealy makes their own coils in their metal plant (I can't remember where it is at the moment). Those are the 2 major companies who make their own coils and, yes, Leggett makes most of the rest of the manufacturers coils for them.<BR>The statement that all the coils are the same because they are made by the same company is akin to saying all Chevrolet cars are the same because they are made by the same company. Leggett makes coils, to spec, for most of the major companies in the US. "TO SPEC" being the most important phrase in this statement. Serta has their own coil made by Leggett, but Serta holds a patent on that particular coil system, so no other company can use it. Did you know that Leggett makes over 400 different coil systems? Additionally, you need to keep in mind that there may be multiple ways to make the exact same type of coil! Looking at a Marshall coil (pocketed coil). Simmons, in their factories, receives a huge spool of 15.5 gauge and 13.5 gauge wire. This wire has been electrically "tempered" before shipping. Once in their factory, they have this really cool machine that makes their "Power Pocketed" coil. Upside is that it is a "Power Pocketed" coil, which means a 12 coil is pocketed into a 9" pocket, making the coil a bit more responsive. Downside is that when you bent tempered metal, it re-arranges the molecules and eliminates the tempering effect. Let's look at the same type of coil made for the Restonic "Grand Palais" mattresses. These coils are made by Leggett. Basically the same steps are taken except for the "Power Pocketing", that is a patent currently held by Simmons. One major difference is that the coil made for Restonic is electronically tempered after it is formed into a coil. This makes for more consistent and more durable coils. Simmons will have a higher coil count with slightly weaker, more responsive coils and Restonic will have a lower coil count with slightly stronger coils. Your durability and support will roughly balance out, but the two beds will have completely different comfort levels, assuming everything else (foam layers) are the same.<BR>Bonnell coils are the most common TYPE of coil, but there are literally 40 different sizes of Bonnell coils, that I am aware of, and each of those are available in a multitude of different coil counts.<BR>What you are calling "Offset" coils, again, needs a bit more detail. First of all, it seems, by your statement, that you are slightly biased to this type of coil, without reason. There are quite a few different designs on the "Offset" coil and there are a few different ways these can be used in a bed. Looking at Sealy, they use a "Double Offset" coil, meaning it has a slightly better "hinging" action and they run the coils from head to toe with the helicoil lacing side to side. Now looking at Spring Air, using a completely different design on the "offset" coil, runs them side to side while the helicoils run from head to foot. Some people say the lacing running side to side makes for more body impressions (these are the people who run them head to foot) and some people say that running them head to foot makes for more sagging (these are the people who run them side to side). <BR>Your continuous coil systems are simply a variation of the offset coil system and in the more than 15 years of selling mattresses, I have found neither benefit nor disadvantage this type of coil nor any other coil system. <BR><BR>Bottom line is there are many, many different kinds of coils, not all made by Leggett. Each coil system makes that mattress feel a bit different and react differently. If you were to line up all the coil systems, say 400, side by side and put the exact same amount of padding on each one of them, you would have 400 different comfort levels. <BR>I tell my customers to buy a bed based on comfort and comfort alone and when they do this, they are usually successful. When my customers try to over think the process, that is when we usually have to exchange the mattress for them. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
THEMATTRESSMAN wrote: The statement that Leggett makes coils for Simmons and Sealy is incorrect. I have personally been in 3 different Simmons factories and seen, with my own eyes, them making their own coils. Also, Sealy makes their own coils in their metal plant (I can't remember where it is at the moment). Those are the 2 major companies who make their own coils and, yes, Leggett makes most of the rest of the manufacturers coils for them. The statement that all the coils are the same because they are made by the same company is akin to saying all Chevrolet cars are the same because they are made by the same company. Leggett makes coils, to spec, for most of the major companies in the US. "TO SPEC" being the most important phrase in this statement. Serta has their own coil made by Leggett, but Serta holds a patent on that particular coil system, so no other company can use it. Did you know that Leggett makes over 400 different coil systems? Additionally, you need to keep in mind that there may be multiple ways to make the exact same type of coil! Looking at a Marshall coil (pocketed coil). Simmons, in their factories, receives a huge spool of 15.5 gauge and 13.5 gauge wire. This wire has been electrically "tempered" before shipping. Once in their factory, they have this really cool machine that makes their "Power Pocketed" coil. Upside is that it is a "Power Pocketed" coil, which means a 12 coil is pocketed into a 9" pocket, making the coil a bit more responsive. Downside is that when you bent tempered metal, it re-arranges the molecules and eliminates the tempering effect. Let's look at the same type of coil made for the Restonic "Grand Palais" mattresses. These coils are made by Leggett. Basically the same steps are taken except for the "Power Pocketing", that is a patent currently held by Simmons. One major difference is that the coil made for Restonic is electronically tempered after it is formed into a coil. This makes for more consistent and more durable coils. Simmons will have a higher coil count with slightly weaker, more responsive coils and Restonic will have a lower coil count with slightly stronger coils. Your durability and support will roughly balance out, but the two beds will have completely different comfort levels, assuming everything else (foam layers) are the same. Bonnell coils are the most common TYPE of coil, but there are literally 40 different sizes of Bonnell coils, that I am aware of, and each of those are available in a multitude of different coil counts. What you are calling "Offset" coils, again, needs a bit more detail. First of all, it seems, by your statement, that you are slightly biased to this type of coil, without reason. There are quite a few different designs on the "Offset" coil and there are a few different ways these can be used in a bed. Looking at Sealy, they use a "Double Offset" coil, meaning it has a slightly better "hinging" action and they run the coils from head to toe with the helicoil lacing side to side. Now looking at Spring Air, using a completely different design on the "offset" coil, runs them side to side while the helicoils run from head to foot. Some people say the lacing running side to side makes for more body impressions (these are the people who run them head to foot) and some people say that running them head to foot makes for more sagging (these are the people who run them side to side). Your continuous coil systems are simply a variation of the offset coil system and in the more than 15 years of selling mattresses, I have found neither benefit nor disadvantage this type of coil nor any other coil system. Bottom line is there are many, many different kinds of coils, not all made by Leggett. Each coil system makes that mattress feel a bit different and react differently. If you were to line up all the coil systems, say 400, side by side and put the exact same amount of padding on each one of them, you would have 400 different comfort levels. I tell my customers to buy a bed based on comfort and comfort alone and when they do this, they are usually successful. When my customers try to over think the process, that is when we usually have to exchange the mattress for them.
The mattress industry needs more people like you who actually know something about mattresses instead of people who will just say anything to get a sale and know next to nothing about them. |
Re: a couple more questions- what is a good coil spring mattress, and assurance regarding topper depth
|
Hello, I just purchased a Shifman Rembrandt Queen Size. I LOVE THE BED! I prefer separate toppers so that I can create my own comfortable topper. I prefer the most firm because I am a stomach sleeper, and need to lie on top of the mattress, not sink into it. The Shifman Rembrandt met every need, is absolutely the most expertly crafted mattress. It comes with the 8 way hand tied box spring. I opted to get the low profile, split queen boxspring, because of the narrow stairway in my condo. I can't praise the Shifman enough, and it SMELLS GREAT!! Although it is expensive, it is worth every penny. I purchase my latex at Sleep like a Bear. com. I also purchased a Wool/bamboo cover for my topper which I LOVE, LOVE. Which you can only find at Sleeplikeabear.com. Both the latex, and the topper cover are VERY EXPENSIVE, but will last a lifetime, and you will never regret it. I prefer 3 inches and have actually used a 4 inch, but I only need 3 inches on the Shifman, and I think that you would be able to get away with only two on the Shifman even though it is very firm. I still like a firm topper, so I got 2 inches of the 40 ILD Talatech Latex foam, and 1 inch of the 36 ILD. That is perfect for me. It is strictly a personal choice. I want cushioning, but not sinking...I also have a fitted mattress pad on the topper cover, that I can wash on a regular basis, as you cannot wash the wool/bamboo topper cover. A note about the wool bamboo topper cover from Sleep Like a Bear. It is an excellent cover, and I found that I could actually squeeze another inch in the 3 inch one if I needed to...so you can get a 2 inch cover, and still put in an extra inch if you found you wanted another inch layered in there. Best thing to do is get a 2 inch latex topper to start with before buying the cover (you will love the cover, trust me) to see how you like the feel of latex. If you want to experiment and keep it cheap, try foambymail.com. Their latex toppers (get the MEDIUM firmess...not the soft) but it does have a stronger smell to it. It is about 32 ILD, which I find too soft for me. I got a 2 inch one from them, and tried it for about a year, before I went for the expensive Latex at SleepLikeABear.com...you have more choices of firmess with the expensive latex....foambymail.com only has medium (about 32 ILD) or soft (about 28 ILD). All latex does have a "smell" just so you are aware of that. If it is a cover, you can't smell it at all, though, especially the kind from SleepLikeABear.com. The heavier you are, the more the latex will give (but it comes right back up) I weigh 120 lbs so I consider a 40 ILD the perfect firmness topped off with the 36 ILD of 1 inch for "firm" cushioning without sinking in. (By the way, you won't be able to lift more than 2 inches, if you have to remove it from your bed..it is very heavy. You need to turn and flip a Shifman, so you will have to remove the topper to do that....so consider that before purchasing just 3 inches all in the same topper. If you want 3 inches, then get 2 inches as a base, and then a 1 inch for just a touch more softer feel. What I do which makes the bed easier to strip and make up, is put a fitted sheet on the Shifman mattress (I actually have a second bed skirt on it so I have a double ruffle bedskirt....one on the box spring, and then one on the mattress itself) If you chose the firmer ILD and put a mattress pad on top of THAT, you can put a fitted sheet on it fine as anything, and you don't have to worry about lifting up a heavy mattress to struggle putting on a fitted sheet....and it always fits, since the topper will only be 3 inches thick.
|