Mattress Forum

Since it was your post that sort of "turned on the tap" of posting a lot of what I had discovered, I'm wondering how you and your mom are doing with your "research"?

Phoenix

Well, the past couple of weeks I've been mostly dealing with "winter is coming" weather changes and gnashing my teeth down flat whenever I think of mattress shopping.

I believe that the mattress Mom has -- which she loved for a number of years -- is latex.  The tag doesn't say -- doesn't have any contents at all listed in the space for it on the tag at the head of the bed.  There are a number of letters and numbers written on the back of that tag which might contain the info -- but when she first began to be unhappy with it, a couple of years ago, I wrote to the small midwestern mattress manufacturer that made it -- with the intention of ordering a new mattress similar to it, or if that wasn't possible, of finding out what was in it.  They have a website, so presumably still exist, but I haven't been able to get a reply from them of any sort.  So, assuming it is latex, I don't know what sort of latex, ILD, etc.

I had contacted a fairly large, reputable -- I think -- northwestern mattress dealer and asked about the Terra about the same time I posted here.    They replied, recommending "their firmest latex mattress" "Englander 5003" -- firm because I'd said "these days most mattresses are fairly soft and feel like Jello".  I'd actually said, as I did here, that the mattress Mom loved felt to *me* like Jello.

So I replied, explaining this again, saying that we'd considered Englanders, but that information on exactly what is in their mattresses seems to be difficult to get, and while some user reviews are favorable, there are so many unhappy Englander owners complaining of short mattress lifetimes, substantial "body impressions" and even lopsided construction that -- while I realize that the varied reports may be due to Englanders being produced by different regional manfacturers, whose differing standards might account for varied quality reports -- my overall conclusion is that that if I wanted the kind of hassle some Englander purchasers are having I might as well deal with the S mattress companies.  I included in the reply a copy of my original inquiry, stating what sort of mattress we were looking for and asking about the OMI organicpedic Terra.

I got a reply, recommending Englanders 6" medium density core topped with a natura 3" soft latex topper as a good combination to ensure that "the softness that people are complaining about is not an issue" and saying that "if you must have an all Talalay mattress Natura makes several mattresses that would work for your mother.

From this I conclude

#1 the person doing their email is incapable of understanding that Mom *likes* a very soft mattress.

#2 either there is something dreadful about OMI Organicpedic mattresses, or else for some reason they don't want to sell them, even though they feature them on their website. (I could understand a reply that said "The Terra has these advantages, or a more economical way to get a similar feeling mattress might be . . . " but their replies have just ignored my Terra inquiries.

I'm beginning to consider also #3 -- there's something odd about this business -- as, while their earlier responses have sounded professional -- even if they did persist in pushing Englanders and ignoring my Terra inquiries -- I received a message from them a couple of days ago, quoting my earlier messages and saying, " Im am out " 

I've no idea what that means.  I wish I could email a different person and find out if their reluctance to talk about the organicpedic is store policy or just a property of someone who is perhaps is in a contest to sell the most Englanders or who gets more commission for selling Englanders -- but I don't know how to achieve that.  And if for whatever reason they don't want to sell organicpedics than I'd be better off to look elsewhere, as I can't get legitimate organicpedic vs. other brand comparison advice in that case -- and if I bought an organicpedic they didn't want to sell and had trouble they'd be unlikely to be helpful.

Also, while the OMI organicpedic folks' website FAQ references "industry-leading 20-year limited warranty", there's no copy of it on the website, I emailed them and asked if they could point me to a copy of it -- no reply.

So, mostly, I'm just discouraged.

I haven't had time to chase down all the mattress links thoroughly, but at this point, I haven't seen anything that I think is as likely to be something Mom would like as the Terra because:

1) Quality components, and I suspect that the natural talalay latex might wear better on an adjustable bed -- especially with someone who puts a lot of "mileage" on the bed -- because of the more even structure of the talalay process

2) Two sided, flippable -- I think this is likely to prolong quality -- but even if it wasn't, I'd want one that's flippable because she likes having it flipped every time her sheets are changed.

3) Topper piece has two different surfaces and attaches to the main mattress, instead of just lying on it.  The two different surfaces -- in addition to the surface of the regular mattress itself -- would seem to provide easy adjustment of "feel" of the mattress, which seems desirable as her back's problem level varies from time to time.  And having the topper attach seems to me likely to make it work better on an adjustable bed.

4) Phoenix and mate -- two people with different builds who like soft mattresses -- say Terra is feels soft and comfortable.

I'm not at all opposed to finding the same features at a lower price -- but I haven't seen that feature-combination elsewhere.  And while the price difference for the twin size Terra compared to other mattresses is fairly horrifying, it's not as bad as it would be with a larger bed.  And truthfully, *all* the even allegedly decent mattresses seem to have fairly appalling prices -- so it seems to me the more important factor is finding #1 comfort and #2 durable quality.

I wondered how Phoenix and mate like the mattress they'd ordered.  Or if it has arrived?

We're still looking at adjustable bed frames -- need to decide for sure whether to get a new one before placing a mattress order -- but at this point aren't making much progress with ordering a mattress.

Budgy -- don't you think you want to open a branch store in the Big Horn mountains?

JLJ

Quite frankly we both prefer it (feeling wise) over the OMI (or any of the others we tried) but I would think that part of that is just because "I made it" and I knew exactly what I wanted. I know that a lot of people tend to go firmer but for me one of the beauties of latex is it has the ability to support even with a (relatively) soft ild. I like a bit of "sinking in" feeling along with a feeling of being supported and it (for us) does both.

Phoenix

So the thing to do would be to inquire the price of the Barrington super ultra: Phoenix edition?  ;]

How does it lie on your adjustable bed -- that is, if the bed is up and you're not in it, does it bend to lie along the support surface or does it do Stonehenge impressions (lying like a straight stone cap perched on the support points)?

I just tested the combination in various positions to answer your question.

There are of course 3 bends in the adjustable bed base itself. One of them bends to raise the head part and two of them bend to raise the foot part. See diagram here http://www.reverie.com/deluxe.htm

With both head and foot raised to maximum, the mattress "curves" in between bend 1 and 2 while the bend of the base itself is of course more angular. This results in the mattress being about 3" above bend #1 and about 1.5" above bend #2. The bottom of the curve where the mattress rests on the frame is about half way between bend #1 and #2 and it looks well supported (not just "barely touching"). The Reverie goes to 70% at the head so this angle is more extreme than it would be on other types of adjustable beds.

The mattress conforms to bend #3 at the base except you can see that the very edge of the mattress is about 1" above the base. The actual support is coming a few inches "inside" the edge (part of this is because the very edge is "rounded" with the pillowtop) so the pillowtop itself is touching the frame but the mattress cording is slightly above the frame.

With just the head raised to maximum, the differential at bend #1 is just slightly less (maybe 2.5").

With just the head raised to about 1/2 way, the differential at bend #1 (maximum distance between the mattress and base) is about 2".

With just the feet raised, the differential between the mattress and bend 2 is about 1.5" (same as before) but the support at the edge is closer to the end of the base.

In other words, I would have to say that it is nothing like "stonehenge" and that while it's comformity doesn't go all the way into the more angular bends of the base, it seems to conform very well and the end does not "flip up" as I have seen happen with other mattresses.

A slightly thinner mattress would probably conform even better but all of this is without any weight.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Interesting that a mattress that thick conforms to the bed that well.

One of several reasons I've wondered if we could find a different adjustable bed for her that had significant height range adjustability is that I've thought that a mattress any thicker than the about eight inch one she has now might make it hard for her to get into bed.  And when we first looked at mattresses locally,  the one sided ones -- which were about all we could find locally -- were all thick.  Even for her to lie on the flat display models there often had to be something for her to climb on to get onto them.

We looked at the nexgel doublegel -- which she liked better than others she looked at, but still not very well.  It's theoretically OK for adjustable beds, but when the bed was put up without weight on it, it definitely did Stonehenge impressions, as did all the other "adjustable bed mattresses" that store carried.   She'd never have been able to get back into bed with one of those if she got out with the bed up -- and there have been times when she's had to use elevation of the head of the bed to help her get into position to get up -- depending on how her back is.  Even with the bed flat getting in with those thick one sided mattresses would have been a problem.

She's not an extremely short woman -- about 5'6" -- I think that difficulty for women getting into beds with the thick one sided mattresses is yet another problem induced by the industry decline from *good* two sided mattresses to (cough) one sided mattresses.  She remarked that some of her friends had had problems getting into beds with thick new mattresses in recent years, but just learned to back up to the bed and kind of crouch and jump backwards.  Not a good idea for anyone, and certainly not for older people, and definitely not something Mom could do safely.

Not sure if you were asking me or meaning to call them and ask but in case it was me, I paid $1409.95 plus $287.80 shipping for a total of $1697.75. He actually split the paypal payments and made a $10 mistake in his addition (should have been 1399.95 plus shipping) but I didn't quibble or even mention it to him :).

When I originally called him I asked him what the price would be for a queen size with 9" of Talalay latex with a quilted top (this was my standard question for everyone) and he quoted me 1199.95 plus 227.75 shipping from Texas to Washington state (this was for 2.5" plus 4" + 2.5" quilted both sides which was the rough outcome of our original conversation) but what got my attention was that it was quilted both sides and so flippable (he is a big proponent of 2 sided mattresses). This was one of the things that made him stand out among the crowd and part of why I pursued it through many more conversations.

When we came up with the final configuration, the original price he quoted me was higher (I believe it was about 1600 plus shipping) and I commented about the "big jump" (I hadn't realized that adding a half inch of latex in both outer layers and another 1/2 inch of quitable latex and the down substitute and material in the quilting would increase the cost by about $400). He looked at it and then came down to the price I mentioned and I said yes on the spot.

Phoenix

I went to their website and strangely enough you're right they don't have an email listed. I did exchange emails with him but I don't know if this was an email he want's "released" so it would probably be better to ask him. I rarely emailed anyone cause I like the "immediacy" of just calling and talking to people so I never noticed that. I did check their BBB rating and they have an A+ rating and have been listed there for over 20 years so I had some confidence they were "for real" from the outset.

Down substitute is a material that feels very much like down but is synthetic and tends to keep it's loft better than down and be more resistant to moisture. He said he really liked this one and after I got the mattress I asked him what it was (he originally mentioned that it came from italy) because I had a feeling someone would ask me. He said he would email me with the information but I haven't received it yet. My guess is that it's Primaloft or something similar

The surface material itself is quite smooth but the quilting I ordered has "bumps" in it similar to the one on their home page but "rounder".

Originally I was building to certain specs and it didn't matter so much to me if it was blended Talalay or natural talalay (they both have different advantages but are very similar). I was debating between 22 and 24 for the top layers and 28 or 32 for the core. Once we decided on certain ILD's I was curious and looked at the LI website and realized that the 22 had to be natural while the 28 could have been either. I asked him if the layers were 22 natural and 28 blended (that was my assumption) and he said yes. I was actually happy in retrospect that it turned out this way because the natural is a little "springier" and the blend would be a little "firmer" (slightly less resilience) so it worked out well (this is really nitpicking and I doubt anyone would actually feel this). I also like the idea of sleeping closer to 100% latex (even though the layer closest to me is the down substitute) but which versions of talalay for either was a minor issue for me.

The listed shipping weight was 125 lbs but it felt more like a ton :). The delivery guy asked me if it really weighed that much and I laughed and said it was probably more. I would guess that it was a bit more than that based on the two of us carrying it up a flight of steps and that this was just their "shipping weight" for cost purposes but it was at least that. They shipped it truck freight and it was wrapped in thick plastic and then a tougher stiffer material over that (probably a puncture proof material of some kind). I was kind of surprised because for some reason I expected it to be shipped in cardboard but it arrived in good shape.

I didn't even ask about a comfort guarantee for two reasons really. First I was pretty sure that I could adjust it enough with something on top if I needed to soften it up at all (I knew that 22 wouldn't be too soft) and second because I was well aware that shipping a whole mattress would be prohibitively expensive. If for some reason I needed to adjust it in a way that a mattress pad or even a topper couldn't fix, I would be better off selling it and starting over again (my loss would be less than the shipping for a mattress). This was part of the risk I was willing to take but it seemed minimal to me. I'm sure they would be happy to alter it if someone needed to and was willing to pay shipping (as I'm sure most custom manufacturers would) but quite frankly I never asked as the lack of a practical comfort exchange was something that of course I considered but willingly gave up in exchange for getting the other advantages of a custom builder.

Durability (and perhaps even more important the ability to maintain it's qualities over time) was a very big reason that I wanted latex ... along with it's other advantages. This was very important to me from the beginning of my search.

Phoenix

PS: As far as "interviewing" every mattress manufacturer, sometimes it feels like I did (laughing). I lost count of how many conversations I had that started off with my "standard" questions and then went in all kinds of different directions. There are hundreds of them though it seems and I got pretty good at "targeting" which ones to pursue and which ones to pass by.

Also, wherever you tried it, did you by any chance find out the ILD of the layers and topper that form the Terra?

While it could change, currently, Mom thinks that she's most interested in the Terra. 

While the whole mattress industry seems so veracity-challenged that one wonders about anything said by any manufacturer, we're somewhat impressed by the OrganicPedic folks' claim that, because of their "organic" standards, they exercise more control over the composition and manufacturing procedures used for their components than other mattress makers -- and that whenever possible they manufacture their components themselves -- and that their rubber is brought into the country in powdered form and made into Talalay latex here, so that it escapes some of the chemicals to which rubber imported in other forms must be exposed. 

Some of their information alleged that, even if other mattress makers have good intentions, they usually don't have any way to really know what is in many of their components, or things like exactly what quality of cotton or wool or latex is used, or to what external conditions their components have been exposed -- and that does kind of ring true.  

It's interesting to us not so much in the organic-purist sense as in a high quality control sense, though the organic element seems more of an issue with an older person or any other person who might have increased sensitivity and decreased resistance to adverse effects induced by stray chemicals, even in small quanitities that might not be significant to the rest of us.

In combating criticisms that their use of organic wool as a fire retardant might stimulate wool allergies, they point out that wool as it's used in the mattress never contacts anyone directly, and thus has little chance of stimulating allergies, then they remark that the usual alternative is silica, and observe that it seems a questionable benefit for other manufacturers to say "to protect you from a distant chance of a wool allergy, we substitute a component that may cause cancer." 

I chuckled a bit about the pronouncement that their organic sheep are never dipped into pesticides, as I did wonder . . . it's certainly no kindness to sheep to let them be exposed to parasites -- a common old method was to cook up a mix of  Indian Poke, tobacco, and other things -- or whatever was locally available that was believed to have parasite-repelling properties, often quite a toxic, though "natural" mix -- and dip the sheep in that, so I do wonder what those organic sheep really get dipped in -- something similar, I suspect. 

JLJ