Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery / new mattress
Aug 24, 2011 8:46 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
(Note added in March 2012: Gave up on the old mattress & bought a new one. Added to this thread for continuity.)

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(Note added in Jan. 2012: The topper-search saga turned into a mattress-surgery saga. Mattress surgery details are farther down in the thread.)

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I'm looking for opinions on the next way to tweak my toppers. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the current setup:
Two-year-old 9" high old-fashioned, two-sided (flippable), firm innerspring mattress (full size), on a wooden [correction: wood and steel] foundation; both still in very good shape.
On top of the mattress: 2" 32 ILD Talatech latex topper from SleepLikeABear.
On top of that: 1" Talatech latex topper, 24 ILD.
The 3" of latex are enclosed in a heavy-ish cotton/poly cover from FBM.

Stats: 50-year-old woman, about 5'6", 120-125 pounds; side and back sleeper, but mostly side. A little joint pain in the hips now and then, but no serious illnesses or injuries to work around (knock on wood).

(The 2" 32ILD topper is a new purchase. I read some old forum threads that I'd saved on my PC; waffled between 32ILD and 28ILD; thought about getting an inch of each; but that was more expensive, and I was most worried about getting something that would turn out to be too soft, like my previous attempts, so I went with the 32ILD.)

So:

With just those 3" of latex, I think my hips & back are OK, but my shoulders still get too crunched and I wake up with some arm numbness.

When I add my 1"-thick polyfill fiberbed on top of the latex, my shoulders are good, but my hips sink down a little too far -- because this fiberbed is several years old and has flattened in just the hip area -- so I wake up with some low back pain. (The rest of the fiberbed is still in great shape.)

One option: I thought about getting a 1" 20ILD layer from FoamByMail and adding it on top of the 3" of latex I already have. Recent posts seem to imply that FBM's quality has gotten better and more reliable than when I was here on the forums 2 years ago.  But: Since I pretty much bottom out on the 24ILD layer, I'm skeptical that a 20ILD layer would help or would balance things out.

(If I put the 1" 24ILD layer on the floor, my bony hips & shoulders go right down to the floor. If I fold that topper in half and lie on that, I still go right down to the floor. That makes me wonder about all the posts I see about 19ILD and even 14ILD layers -- I can't quite fathom how those would be useful, so I'm curious about that.)

Another option: Get scrap foam and add some just in the hip area, under the part of the fiberbed that has flattened. SLAB sells some scrap latex of various sizes and ILDs. Maybe something like a 28ILD scrap under the hips would work?

Another option: A 1" 28ILD layer (or equivalent in 100% natural latex) between the 24 and the 32?

I'd like to avoid memory foam for now, because of the off-gassing issue, but won't completely rule it out.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

Thanks!
-- Catherine

Edited to add:
In case it's useful, here's what I've tried before:

1) A thing called "Oodles" that had latex "noodles" in it -- great idea but poor execution. It would have been terrific if it had had at least twice as many baffles in it to prevent the noodles from shifting around within each baffled section. I half-heartedly attempted to hand-sew in more baffles but didn't know what I was doing and the thing is big & awkward, so that didn't work. (I used it on top of the 24ILD topper.)

2) Below the 1" 24ILD topper -- a 2" Dunlop latex topper from Overstock.com, unknown ILD & manufacturer. Wonderful for a while... but then it cratered in the hip area. Did not think latex was supposed to do that, but it did. [Edited to add: this was medium-firm synthetic, or mostly synthetic, Dunlop. Natural stuff would hold up much better, I'm sure.]

This message was modified Mar 15, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #44 Jan 3, 2012 6:47 PM
Joined: Jun 16, 2011
Points: 171
"Have to wonder if people reading this thread think I'm the most fickle person on the planet:"

Not at all! After spending 18 years on one mattress that was basically a board with springs by the time I decided it had to go, I turned into the new version of The "Princess and the Pea" with my mattress purchase. I found that what was suitable for my young body all those years ago just wouldn't do anymore.

I spent over a month trying out a mattress, returning it, buying foams and toppers, configuring and reconfiguring them to try and make it just right. I knew I had it right the morning I got up with zero pain from a back injury and was able to bend down and put my shoes on without a half hour of warming up first.

I hope you find your mattress Nirvana too!smiley

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #45 Jan 3, 2012 10:33 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
DoreenA wrote:

"Have to wonder if people reading this thread think I'm the most fickle person on the planet:"

Not at all! After spending 18 years on one mattress that was basically a board with springs by the time I decided it had to go, I turned into the new version of The "Princess and the Pea" with my mattress purchase. I found that what was suitable for my young body all those years ago just wouldn't do anymore.

Thanks, Doreen; I appreciate that. I'm feeling rather Princess-and-the-Pea-ish, too, now. And I also used my previous mattress for 18 years.

I've got the convoluted foam off the bottom of the mattress; the mattress back in its case, with a board under the hip area (between the springs & case -- although I think I left the dacron in there); the Novabond fiber mat & dacron off the top of the mattress; an old thin mattress pad spread out over the springs; and the latex & sheets back on the bed.

And I'm whupped. Wrestling with this mattress has been a challenge. And getting the spring structure out of the case turned out to be much easier than putting it back in. (Not surprising, I guess.)

I still don't know how to tell if the springs are good. I don't see any huge dips, but that might not mean anything. Anyone got any hints on that?

The coil count turns out to be 522 (18 across, 29 down) -- so much for the 660 I was told when I bought it. Someone got mixed up. Could have been me, of course, but I'm pretty obsessive & careful about my research -- shocking, I know smiley -- and I took notes in the store. (If I remember correctly, the store's website did not list specs at the time. I do know that their site was completely redesigned sometime after I bought my mattress.)

According to Leggett & Platt, the Lura-Flex coil count options (PDF) for full-size mattresses are 522, 580, and 660. Hmmm....

 

I spent over a month trying out a mattress, returning it, buying foams and toppers, configuring and reconfiguring them to try and make it just right. I knew I had it right the morning I got up with zero pain from a back injury and was able to bend down and put my shoes on without a half hour of warming up first.

Glad you finally found something that works for you. I'm afraid I might have cut this mattress up for nothing. The best lesson here might be: If you plan to do mattress surgery someday, do *not* get a double-sided mattress.

 

I'm not feeling optimistic about this -- my spine still doesn't look straight when I lie on the mattress (with or without latex on it) -- but we'll see how things go.

I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much from the coils. Should the Lura-flex offset coils be flexible and conforming enough to keep my spine aligned, or is that not a realistic expectation for someone with an hourglass figure? Does anyone know?

 

Going to go fall into bed now (what's left of it)....

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #46 Jan 4, 2012 3:03 AM
Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Points: 93
Catherine wrote:

 

 

 

Well, Jason, you might get to say "I told you so" (or "Fixed It For You" again). laugh

The sinkhole is coming back -- and this is after I rotated the mattress (a couple days ago) and cut off the top quilted panel (yesterday). Measured it this time, this morning, by laying a yardstick across the bed and holding a ruler up at the deepest part of the dip, and there's a 3/8" gap. Not a huge crater, but enough to cause lower back pain.

So, either the coils have crapped out, or the foam on the bottom of the mattress has crapped out. If it's the 2" of PU foam on the bottom (1" of which is quilted into the mattress case), then the springs will have to be extracted.

Extracting the springs raises several questions, like: What do I put this thing in? How do I maintain edge support? And do I need to put a piece of plywood over the entire foundation?

(Ooohh, actually, I have an idea that might let me keep the case in a usable condition... but it'll take a while to do, and I might still lose edge support, though I don't know if that's really all that important.)

 

Also, I'm wondering if the Novabond fiber mat that's on top of the springs interferes with the springs' ability to conform. If so, then building a mattress with that stuff kinda defeats the purpose of using open offset coils, which are supposed to be fairly conforming, from what I've read.

 

This is all rather confusing.... indecision

(Fixed only by restoring the context of "certain the mattress itself is not the problem" in the quote, since I was implying the opposite)

For edge support I put multiple vertical strips of polyethylene foam around the springs, replacing only the walls of that foam box (also polyethylene) your springs are currently in.  You could cut the bottom out of that, & use only the sides of that thing too.  I just didn't want to save anything that wasn't steel.  Either way keep it only around the edges, not underneath.   I used the blue camping mats from wal mart (the shiny $5 hard ones in a roll, in the camping section are polyethylene, not the soft blue ones in the yoga section) to a little under the height of the springs.  Depending on your springs, you can also slide one of these strips, vertically, just inside each of the outermost rows of springs along all four edges, inside the unit itself.

You can put the entire thing in any thin mattress encasement. My springs sit directly on slats, but plywood probably wouldn't be z problem either.  If you're worried about your springs' performance, put on old clothes (they might get snagged), & lay down directly on them.  You can tell right away if they're all just all mashing down together underneath you, or actually conforming like you know they should.  Now the goal is to just add as little as is required to relieve pressure, without dampening that conforming action of your springs.  If you were a back sleeper, <2" of firm latex would do it.  Side sleepers will need something thicker & softer.  But every layer of pads, foam, & casing you add puts you that much further removed from what your springs are doing for you.  I've found less is more.

Something else to think about- just shuffling around all these foams & springs in & out of cases, on & off your bed, can wreck that night's sleep regardless of what you're sleeping on, if you don't take precautions.  No joke, treat it as an athletic event- stretch before & after, move purposefully, don't get caught in an awkward position while holding anything heavy, & get someone to help, or do it for you if possible.  Even changing sheets one too many times if you're bending awkwardly can strain.

 I'm convinced a lot of members here don't end up giving some their new setups a fair chance, because they've unknowingly strained their backs in the process of setting it up, then feel it that  night.   Many of here already have back/muscle/nerve problems.  We didn't seek this forum  out because we can sleep on just anything.  There's probably a reason for that.  Have to pay attention to our sensitivities.  

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by JasonRatky
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #47 Jan 4, 2012 8:57 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
JasonRatky wrote:

For edge support I put multiple vertical strips of polyethylene foam around the springs, replacing only the walls of that foam box (also polyethylene) your springs are currently in.  You could cut the bottom out of that, & use only the sides of that thing too.  I just didn't want to save anything that wasn't steel.  Either way keep it only around the edges, not underneath.   I used the blue camping mats from wal mart (the shiny $5 hard ones in a roll, in the camping section are polyethylene, not the soft blue ones in the yoga section) to a little under the height of the springs.  Depending on your springs, you can also slide one of these strips, vertically, just inside each of the outermost rows of springs along all four edges, inside the unit itself.


Thanks very much for the info about using strips of hard camping mats to go around the edges of the springs. That is a creative idea.

My springs weren't wrapped in any sort of polyethylene foam box. They were just covered with convoluted PU foam -- one sheet each on top & bottom -- that was wrapped only a few inches down the sides. (Directly above the springs were the Novabond mats & dacron sheets; then the foam; then the quilted top & bottom panels.)

I'm not convinced that these coils are still good -- my hips were sinking down too far last night. And there was a plywood board across the hip area, below the springs/dacron/Novabond and the quilted bottom. [I keep editing this paragraph because I keep checking things on the springs, and one time I check, I think the springs can't go downward anymore, because of the board, and another time I check, I think maybe they are going down a smidge. Hard to tell from on top of the springs.]

 

 If you're worried about your springs' performance, put on old clothes (they might get snagged), & lay down directly on them.  You can tell right away if they're all just all mashing down together underneath you, or actually conforming like you know they should. 

Well, they do sort of mash down, but they're springs -- they're supposed to compress -- so I don't know how to tell whether they're compressing more than they should.

 

I did notice much less pressure on my shoulders, so I think removing the dacron & Novabond from the top of the springs did free up the coils to do their thing better. (Which, again, makes me wonder why those pads were put there in the first place. If you wanted to sell a firm mattress, wouldn't you be better off using different springs and a lower-gauge wire, instead of using open offset coils and a higher-gauge wire and then dampening them with fiber mats?)

 

I tried to be careful moving the mattress around, but sometimes getting caught in an awkward position is inevitable with heavy things. (The spring structure is not all that heavy; it's just awkward to handle because of its size.) Generally, I do not have lower back pain *unless* it's been caused by the mattress.

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #48 Jan 4, 2012 10:46 AM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
FYI, the top Sealy Posterpedic on US matress has 620 14 gauge coils in their firm mattresses.  So, that would be significantly firmer than yours (assuming yours are 14.5 gauge).  Of course, how the coils are made will have an impact as well.  I remember when I was trying out the Sealy's that I noticed a material difference in support when go from the top of the line down to the middle of their line.  Of course, I weigh around 210, and the top of the line may be almost too firm.  So, yours may be a bit too soft, but hard for me to say.  If you want it to contour more to your body, pocketed coils are better at that.

I would try it with even less foam.    Maybe take of the 14.  Possibly only 2" of firm latex. Remove whatever you can out of the bottom and leave as thin of a piece over the coils as possible.  I assume you are not using the quilted top any more?   If so, that has to go as well.  If you still think you are sinking in too much, then it is either the coils or the quilted bottom.   

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #49 Jan 4, 2012 11:42 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
sandman wrote:

FYI, the top Sealy Posterpedic on US matress has 620 14 gauge coils in their firm mattresses.  So, that would be significantly firmer than yours (assuming yours are 14.5 gauge). 


Do you know what size mattress that 620 coil count is for on the Sealy Posturepedic? (Twin, Full, Queen...?)

That is interesting that you noticed a big difference in support between the top-of-the-line Sealy mattress and the middle-of-the-line one.

The coils in my mattress are 14.5 gauge.

 

I would try it with even less foam.    Maybe take of the 14.  Possibly only 2" of firm latex. Remove whatever you can out of the bottom and leave as thin of a piece over the coils as possible.  I assume you are not using the quilted top any more?   If so, that has to go as well.  If you still think you are sinking in too much, then it is either the coils or the quilted bottom.   


I'll take off the 1" of 14 ILD. The top quilted panel is gone. The bottom one is still there, but I've got a plywood board between it and the springs, in the hip area, so I can't imagine that the panel would still be much of a factor.

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again
Reply #50 Jan 4, 2012 11:49 AM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
Catherine wrote:

 


Do you know what size mattress that 620 coil count is for on the Sealy Posturepedic? (Twin, Full, Queen...?)

The coils in my mattress are 14.5 gauge.

 


I'll take off the 1" of 14 ILD. The top quilted panel is gone. The bottom one is still there, but I've got a plywood board between it and the springs, in the hip area, so I can't imagine that the panel would still be much of a factor.

620 14 gauge is the full size.  This is in their more expensive ones.  I am sure they have ones with less.  Approximately what did you pay for yours?

 

Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #51 Jan 4, 2012 11:57 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
sandman wrote:

620 14 gauge is the full size.  This is in their more expensive ones.  I am sure they have ones with less.  Approximately what did you pay for yours?


Thanks, Sandman. I paid about $750 for the mattress & foundation in July of 2009.

I will take the springs out of the case again and take out that last sheet of dacron, and try this one more time.

The Novabond mat attached to the springs on the bottom is too thin to be a factor (it's a very dense 1/8" at most), but even with the plywood I've got in there, maybe the dacron and the bottom quilted panel are still a problem somehow. If using the springs without the case and without the dacron doesn't solve the problem, then I think I'm back to Square One (i.e., new mattress).

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #52 Jan 4, 2012 8:40 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
The spring structure is out of the mattress case again and resting on only the very thin Novabond mat, on the foundation. No more foam or dacron on the bottom. No more quilted panels anywhere. The 14 ILD latex is off the top. I've got just a few inches of medium to medium-firm latex on there now.

And when I lie on this thing -- both with and without the latex on it -- my hips still sink in too far; I can feel a kink in my spine, and see it in the mirror setup. I put my yoga mat across the hip area (a couple inches down in the latex layers) to try to stop the sinking. We'll see if that does enough, but I suspect that it will not.

If it doesn't, I think the only conclusion is that the coils just do not provide enough support for me. That might not mean the coils are worn out -- might just mean they're not the right kind for me (which confuses me, because the first year on the mattress was good) -- but if I can't get even close to proper spinal alignment with these coils, then fiddling with toppers is not going to help.

I thought the whole point of the innerspring coils was to provide support, so I'm not a happy camper right now.

I know the coils are going to compress some, 'cause that's how they work, but shouldn't they also be... you know... springing? (By which I mean: Shouldn't they be pushing back up, to provide the elusive support and keep me aloft, rather than continuing to compress and letting me sink in so far?) Or am I misunderstanding something fundamental here?

 

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised in the morning and won't wake up in a sinkhole.... That would be lovely.

 

On a side note: I had to go to an Urgent Care center this afternoon to get a gash in my hand looked at, cleaned out, and bandaged and get a tetanus shot.* The nurse who took care of me is getting ready to open up her mattress, too, and it's only 3 years old. She couldn't remember the model name just then, but said it was an expensive mattress -- and it's been killing her back. Seemed like a (sort of) funny coincidence.

* Guess who cut herself with the razor-blade tool while cutting foam off the mattress? I was taking a very short break from work, cutting some foam, and the tool slipped, so I wound up spending the next hour or so trying to stop the bleeding, and finally called my doctor's office and got sent to an Urgent Care center, where I was very well taken care of. Wonderful people there, and soooo much better than sitting around in an emergency room. (The nurse and I also both had horror stories about overcrowded ER's, so Yay for these Urgent Care centers, and Yay for Eastside Medical in particular.) 

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Tweaking my toppers again / mattress surgery
Reply #53 Jan 4, 2012 9:09 PM
Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Points: 93
Catherine wrote:

 

The spring structure is out of the mattress case again and resting on only the very thin Novabond mat, on the foundation. No more foam or dacron on the bottom. No more quilted panels anywhere. The 14 ILD latex is off the top. I've got just a few inches of medium to medium-firm latex on there now.

 

And when I lie on this thing -- both with and without the latex on it -- my hips still sink in too far; I can feel a kink in my spine, and see it in the mirror setup. I put my yoga mat across the hip area (a couple inches down in the latex layers) to try to stop the sinking. We'll see if that does enough, but I suspect that it will not.

If it doesn't, I think the only conclusion is that the coils just do not provide enough support for me. That might not mean the coils are worn out -- might just mean they're not the right kind for me (which confuses me, because the first year on the mattress was good) -- but if I can't get even close to proper spinal alignment with these coils, then fiddling with toppers is not going to help.

I thought the whole point of the innerspring coils was to provide support, so I'm not a happy camper right now.

I know the coils are going to compress some, 'cause that's how they work, but shouldn't they also be... you know... springing? (By which I mean: Shouldn't they be pushing back up, to provide the elusive support and keep me aloft, rather than continuing to compress and letting me sink in so far?) Or am I misunderstanding something fundamental here?

 

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised in the morning and won't wake up in a sinkhole.... That would be lovely.

 

On a side note: I had to go to an Urgent Care center this afternoon to get a gash in my hand looked at, cleaned out, and bandaged and get a tetanus shot.* The nurse who took care of me is getting ready to open up her mattress, too, and it's only 3 years old. She couldn't remember the model name just then, but said it was an expensive mattress -- and it's been killing her back. Seemed like a (sort of) funny coincidence.

* Guess who cut herself with the razor-blade tool while cutting foam off the mattress? I was taking a very short break from work, cutting some foam, and the tool slipped, so I wound up spending the next hour or so trying to stop the bleeding, and finally called my doctor's office and got sent to an Urgent Care center, where I was very well taken care of. Wonderful people there, and soooo much better than sitting around in an emergency room. (The nurse and I also both had horror stories about ER's, so Yay for these Urgent Care centers, and Yay for Eastside Medical in particular.) 

surprise
Wow foam is serious business.  I hope you're okay.

 

"Well, they do sort of mash down, but they're springs -- they're supposed to compress -- so I don't know how to tell whether they're compressing more than they should."

They are if your hips sink too far without any foam on them, in which case no amount of foam on top can really fix that without compromising their action.  When I lay directly on my springs, I stay flat, at the top. They just barely compress enough under my hips & shoulders for the coils in between those two points to hit the arch of my back.  If your hips are still sinking with that little latex on top, I don't know where to go from there.  I don't know that this is the case with yours, but I have tried mattresses, new, that were already sinking in too much like that for me. I could feel them compress too far even through the comfort layers.  They were 5xx coils, but serta.

 

"I did notice much less pressure on my shoulders, so I think removing the dacron & Novabond from the top of the springs did free up the coils to do their thing better. (Which, again, makes me wonder why those pads were put there in the first place. If you wanted to sell a firm mattress, wouldn't you be better off using different springs and a lower-gauge wire, instead of using open offset coils and a higher-gauge wire and then dampening them with fiber mats?)"

Seems that way to me.  I wish that's how they were made, I just know they don't work for me as is. 
 

This message was modified Jan 4, 2012 by JasonRatky

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