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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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eagle2 wrote: Alex: I am afraid you are going to think that I am being too critical of you, hopefully that is not the case and I am being fair in my evaluation. However, like most of us, you have your point of view. The question is always," how accurate is that point of view." You are quite happy with your Simmons Rosalyn mattress. I am glad for you. However as seen on this website, while the majority, namely 52%, give this mattress a thumbs-up review,42% give it thumbs down. These reviews can be found at viewpoints.com under Simmons -- beauty rest -- black -- Rosslyn -- mattress. To give these figures more meaning I will quote what they have on their website. Out of 31 reviews... 42% gave it five stars, 16% 4 stars, 0% gave it 3 stars, 10% gave it 2 stars and a whopping 32% gave it 1 star. Or to put it more simply. 18 people gave it a thumbs up and 13 people gave it a thumbs down. You evidently would have given it 5 stars. But according to this limited review, 42% of the people would not have agree with you. One of the principal things that you keep reading is how the mattress breaks down over time and gives some of the people a backache. I have an 10 year old waterbed. It was one of those beds with a waveless fiber piece that did an excellent job for about five years. Oh yes, it is a soft sided waterbed. But over time the fiber began to bunch up on one side of the bed. Also I have noticed with a waterbed, you will lose water over a period of time through some kind of evaporation. My guess is that it loses about 5 to 10 gallons over the course of a year. This is so gradual that you hardly notice. But finally it begins to dawn on you that your mattress is getting softer and it's time to put some water in. What happens to me is that with my bad back if I am mowing the yard or doing something to strain it, then my waterbed, will actually contribute towards more problems with my bad back. This happened recently and is what got me into looking at mattresses again. After I put some water in my bed, move my sleeping positions over the side where the flotation material had decided to lodge I got better. Now I'm wondering "what am I doing trying to spend $3000 of money we can afford." I don't blame anybody for my situation other than myself. But when I go shopping for a new bed it would be Oh so wonderful to really hear, "the whole complete truth" about the product that I'm looking at. Surely, as a man who was a successful seller of mattresses for 35 years, and cared a great deal about his customers, and knew a great deal about mattresses, you can see and understand the frustration of those of us who just want a good nights sleep. Were willing to pay for that privilege. But we do need assistance in trying to find a product worthy of our money. Thus, sites like this one! Eagle, I understand your frustration and the frustration of others on this board. I'm trying to put it back on the track of giving answers and helping people answer the question of "What's the Best Mattress (For me)?" Villifying the mattress industry doesn't really answer that question or do much of anything productive. The feedback on viewpoints.com is a perfect example of why some people aren't satisfied with their purchase. A bed is not like a television or a microwave. It's more like a shoe. Currently I'm wearing a pair of size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes. If I took 100 random people and had them walk around in my size 12 reinforced toe black dockers dress shoes for a month many people might come back with negative reviews of the shoe. They might say it hurts their feet or it wasn't supportive. There's nothing wrong with my shoes, it's simply not the right shoe for all of them. It's the right shoe for me and people who have needs similar to mine. My bed is the same way. In a crowd of 20 I bet I could find at least 2 who say the bed is too soft. I bet I can find another 2 who say the bed is too hard. I could find 2 who say the bed completely lacks support. I could find 2 who think it feels amazing. There is no answer for the question "What's the Best Mattress?" But that's okay. This is the wrong question. The correct question is "What's the Best Mattress For Me?" For this reason specific Mattress Reviews are more or less useless. This is why Consumer Reports doesn't do them. You happen to be a consumer who prefers more detail in your purchase. Far finer detail than the average consumer. That's absolutely fine. My advice to you is to find someone who knows what you're asking and purchase from that person. Or use forums such as these to reach a broader audience. I can answer most any question you'd have regarding Tempurpedic, Stearns and Foster, Sealy, Simmons, and Serta as well as general questions regarding coil and foam types and how they may affect your specific needs. If I don't know the answer, I can probably find out via the vendor contacts I've built over time. Does every mattress RSA have access to these tools? No. If this bothers you vote with your wallet and don't purchase from that establishment but understand that the detail with which you're attempting to shop is by far the exception rather than the rule. Most consumers zone out if you try to explain to them that there's more than one type of foam out there. |
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Alex: I will make this short and to the point. What people like Jimsocial and I, and most others, on this forum want, is the correct, true information regarding what the mattresses are constructed of. Simple, concise, accurate, truthful information. It is true that most people would simply become confused and turned off by such information. Most people hear like this, "one, two, three, and a bunch." if you give them anything more than a 1 2 3 approach, they just hear "A Bunch!" That is no reason to not have this information available. The people who are not interested don't have to read it. But those of us who want to know, what we are actually sleeping on, would deeply appreciate this kind of information. My guess would be, that if this were to happen, and people were willing to get informed about the most important piece of furniture in the house, that it would actually improve the mattress industry. They would have to compete on quality and not Naming Conventions and price only. Not Nice Colored Mattress Covers and how soft it felt in the show room. They would have to compete on quality. This might cut into the manufacturers profit margins, then again it might not. In any event, I don't believe it's going to ever happen unless the government makes it happen. The mattress industry is quite happy with the way things are now and my guess is they would fight tooth and toenail against any changes that would impinge on what they perceive as their "proprietary territory." |
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Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex No need to apologize Alex. But it is revealing to see your take on my last post. For the last 15 years of my working life I was a traveling factory representative for a major manufacturer of industrial containers. We sold to the petrochemical and agrochemical businesses. I traveled all over the midwest calling on the major oil companies and chemical companies. There was never any doubt, in anyone's mind, about what went into our product. It was controlled by the DOT (Department of Transportation) . Everybody knew what a 55 gallon DOT 17 E. 20/18gauge tighthead drum was made out of. And God forbid, if for any reason, my company would produced anything less than stipulated. The point being, both the manufacturer and the customer knew exactly what that stipulation was. When they paid their money they received exactly what they expected. You just seem to be intent on seeing this discussion on this board center around condemnation of the manufactures of mattresses. Yes, we are condemning them, but for a very good reason. They do not want to say exactly what is in their mattresses that we are buying. And the fact that a lot of people do not care for this information is not an excuse to not provide it to those of us who do want to know. You do seem to be very defensive of an industry that can hide almost anything, and everything, inside of a fancy cover. If that is being too harsh on the mattress manufacturing industry, so be it! |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex In my opinion, what we are doing is suggesting that the way the mattress industry is and has been conducting its business is anti-consumer and seems to almost border on intentional obfuscation of materials used. All you have to do is look at most S company web sites and I am betting (I have not done so yet) that you will find almost NO information on contents of the foams or springs - that is, no REAL information. Sure they'll mention their "revolutionary new spring design" or their "so-and-so special patented foam design" but nothing that anyone can really sink their teeth into and use for comparison shopping (i.e; HR ILD 36, or even Medium high-density foam") You MAY be right (or you may not be) that the majority of people are happy with their mattresses. I'd say that IF that is true, it must be a miracle because between the ignorant salespeople and the anti-disclosure manufacturers, it is very hard to know what one is getting. I do think there are a LOT of people who can "sleep on anything" and so are not very picky. I'd also say there are probably at least 33% of us who do need a better mattress than what most people buy. And THAT is the point. You keep saying that people do not want to know what is in their mattresses. I think that is true right now, mostly because they know it is a real pain or even impossible to find out, and because there has been no education on it. I suppose computers could have been sold the same way: "Well, this one is really FAST!" "But what's in it?" "Gee, I'm not sure... " "Well, can you get me the specs on it?" "Well, I dunno... maybe..." Pretty soon people would just stop asking and instead say, "Well, I want one that's really fast for surfing the net and burning movies". "Okay, you need the Super Duper (trademark) WhammoSurfAndBurn model!" "Oh, okay... if you say so..." And years from now the computer vendors would say, "Gee, no one ever asks, they don't want to know that stuff, they just want what I tell them is best for them!" And believe me, a lot of people DO buy their computers like that, even though Best Buy puts the little card there that tells us most of what we do want to know. But at least the consumer has the OPTION of easily finding out. Look on the web site for a computer at BestBuy - it tells you a TON of info about it; more than MOST people care to know. But then there are educated buyers like you and me who Do want to know... I'm trying to think of any other industry besides furniture that does not disclose the materials its made of or makes it hard to find out - where the materials play such an important part in the quality and utility of the product! Clothes are labeled, computers, food, phones, cars, stereos, tv's...lots of info about them. No, not the steel they're made from, but then that is not a major factor in tv's. But in mattresses the gauge of steel DOES play a big factor, the ILD of foams DO play a major factor! Just because things have been done this way for 50 years or more - or forever - doesn't mean they should continue to be done this way. Any search on the net about mattresses will reveal TONS of unhappy customers. More and more I am running into people I know who say, "Yeah, I just bought a mattress and it is killing my back!" My sister in law is one of these and she asked the store to exchange it or replace it and they "can't". So what is she to do? I bet tons of people are unhappy with their mattress after 6 months or a year but they don't tell the salesman because they KNOW there is no recourse for them. Then they probably just go to a different store next time... Is there any wonder, when they are putting 5" or more of non-supportive PU foam in them, that the foam is breaking down quickly and causing back problems?? It would not take long for mattress buyers to realize the differences between one mattress and another IF the info was POSTED next to the bed! People "don't want to know" only because mattresses have been presented as a "mystery". I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who did not even know what is inside a mattress. Had no idea. He's not stupid, he's quite bright. He just never thought about it and never asked. The fact is, it is clear that the mattress industry does NOT WANT TO TELL US what is inside, they do not want us asking "those" questions, and my experience has been, they won't even tell you if you call the 800# for customer service and ASK them! Now, later this week, I may test my hypothesis by calling Sealy, Spring Air, etc. and see if they will tell me the info I want re a few of their middle-to-high end mattresses. If I could, I would gather the specs on about 20 middle and high end mattresses here and we'd see how much PU foam is in them. I'd guess that the majority have too much non-supportive foam and are thus, something I would never pay good money for. Getting back to your post above, part of "what is the best mattress" has to do with finding out what is in it, at least for us "picky" customers, those of us with sleep issues or who have already had crappy mattresses full of cheap PU foam and have learned that the crappy PU foam plays a part in the problems we've had. SO, for THAT reason, "what is the best mattress" (this web site, I mean) DOES have to do with changing the industry. Because right now it is VERY hard to get clear info about what types and ILD's of foam are in the mattresses being sold! So maybe the only way to help people buy mattresses that are best for them - especially people who can't find an "Alexander" in their town to help them! - is to start demanding that the mattress companies DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION WE NEED to make a good decision! I am actually going to write my Congressmen about the mattress industry one of these days, soon, and request that it be looked at. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by jimsocal
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I wanted to just add this url here, so that anyone interested in mattress surgery can also see this info re mattress surgery on my Sealy Fenway: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dissecting-my-sealy-fenway-mattress-bought-costco-4-years-ago-lousy-soft-foam-inside/1954-1-1.html |
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I was out on errands today that happened to take me by a Bestbuy. Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them. I accepted this answer and asked him if he could tell me who manufacturered the RAM in the PC. There's a wide...WIDE variation in quality of RAM dependant upon where it's made and by whom. If I'm going to spend a thousand dollars on a computer, I want to know whether I'm buying junk RAM or not. The supervisor said he didn't know. When I asked him if eMachines had a toll free customer support number for questions such as these he gave me a number for tech support but said it was unlikely they would know. Two strikes so far so I attempted go give him an easy one. I asked him if he could tell me of any bloatware found on the PC (bloatware is programs installed on a new computer such as free trials, demos, etc for software you may or may not ever want) He listed three he was aware of but would not reassure me that those three were the only ones installed when I pressed him on it. He wouldn't tell me what was in the PC because he didn't know and didn't know where to get the information. When I asked him why important details like these were not included in the little cards found underneath each computer he said (and this is god's honest truth) "Most customers aren't interested in those sorts of details." Tomorrow I'll conduct an experiment. I'll call three retailers in my area (not my former store) and the Sealy customer service number. I'll ask the following questions: - Can you describe for me the Sealy Posturepedic Coil and how it differs from others? -What's the gauge of the coil? -What kinds of foams are in it? -What kind of ticking do they offer? I'm curious to see how they answer. -Alex This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Alexander
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This is getting very interesting reading this thread. I do agree about mattresses today being full of crummy foam. I have been through many beds myself that I wasted money on. Furniture is the same way now. A recliner I bought (same brand just several months later) has cheaper foam in it, and cheaper vinyl in it. I can see the foam has indentations already, and it is still new! Any way companies can save money and use cheaper components that is what they seem to be doing now. It is very discouraging to even spend you hard earned money on new items. As for computers, all the salepeople had to do to tell you who makes a component is to look at the floor model and use the software (can't remember exactly where it is on a Windows computer now) the machine came with to see system components. It is there! That is how I could see what brand hard drive I had, or even the wireless card. It is true that websites of the S companies do not list their components in detail, I have tried to find out myself many of time. I will say Sealey Truform (like Tempurpedic) did list the lb. of foam so that is a surprise. But the bed still sucked for me. After several months I was in pain, and I mean really bad pain. I hope your new bed works good for you Jim. I am still trying to get my layers of latex, memory foam to work for me. Thanks Alex for doing research and being open minded about the problems with the mattress industry. There are major problems with them. I have heard countless people saying they just bought a bed and they hated it and wished they had kept the old one! We are not alone. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Leo3
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Alexander wrote: I was out on errands today that happened to take me by a Bestbuy. Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them. [edited shorter by jimsocal]Alex, I think I said this before, but I want to say it again: I don't think it's a fair comparison. Like I said, computers DO have the basic technical details listed, at least on the medium range models at BB. I have not looked at the cheapest models so maybe they do not. But like a middle of the road $800 machine like an HP or Dell - they do list the Type of Ram (dual layer DDR or whatever), the Chip type and speed, the amount of Ram and the size of the hard drive and type of DVD and OS and usually a few other things. There are enough DETAILS there to make an informed decision, and usually you can find a sales person to get more info OR find it on the web site of BB or the manufacturer. Frankly, I am a "power user" of computers yet I do not know what the average core temperature is or should be. I don't do gaming or editing on mine, so that is why. And a serious gamer or editor would not be buying a low end model computer, they'd be buying a high end model. That's one thing. Also, the info IS available for all but the most obscure details, if you go to the manufacturer or the web site. Not true with mattresses! So I don't think the analogy of asking re core temp of a computer is exactly the same as asking the mattress store about what types and ILD's of foam are in their mattresses. I think asking about the core temp of a computer is more like asking a mattress store where the steel of the springs was imported from or what temperature it was baked at... in other words these are indeed unusual details that one does not need to know. There may be SOMEONE who feels the need to know, and it would be nice if that info too were available, but I'd be happy if they'd just tell me the types and firmnesses and thicknesses of the foams. Since a mattress is made up of much fewer components than a computer, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ask what types and firmnesses of foams are in it or what type and make of springs are in it. Those are two MOST BASIC components of a bed, not outlandish details for "power sleepers". Every bed has them and every bed's comfort is largely based on those 2 components: coils and foams. So it's not unreasonable for everyone to know those specific details. I was trying to use your computer analogy previously because you brought it up, and I do think going to buy a computer and not knowing the BASIC details of how much RAM and how much hard drive and what speed of chip it has, is similar to asking what type of firmnesses of foam a mattress has. But your question about core temps is exagerrated, I think. These things WOULD be important to using a computer for gaming or editing, BUT again, anyone really into that would be buying a higher end computer and I bet that info is available even at Best Buy if you are willing to wait a day or two for them to call the company etc. or if you call the company as I called Englander and the Englander factory (with almost no info given). I just don't think that computers are the best analogy to mattresses. I wish someone would come up with a more similar product to compare mattresses to; to me it's more like buying a blanket or comforter or clothing or shoes maybe. But unfortunately those aren't good analogies either because shoes and comforters usually are much much less $ than a mattress. Anything I spend a third or more of my life with, on an intimate basis, laying down with it every night with it next to my body, I think I am entitled to know quite a bit about!  |
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This whole business of trying to analogize a mattress to anything is dodging the issue of this conversation. The whole point of this thread is the idea that the mattress industry does not want to say specifically what is in their product. They do not want the buying public to be able to price shop a mattress. This is the reason that they maintain the “naming convention” of all their mattresses from one distributor to another. The truth is the major manufacturers of mattresses do not want you to really know what you’re purchasing. They don’t want you to be adequately informed so that you can compare it to some other companies mattress and the price thereof. Go to any one of the major manufacturers of 100% organic natural latex mattresses and you find all kinds of information that is quite specific to your purchase. When the major manufacturers do this, then I will believe that they want to compete in the marketplace and do right by their customers. As far as I’m concerned, comparing mattresses to computers and shoes, or anything else, has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand. This message was modified Sep 9, 2009 by eagle2
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