Mattress Forum

Hell, there's been many rough nights where the pain takes all the place in your mind and all you can feel is despair. Being afraid to go to bed is a terrible feeling. Although I've wasted a lot of money so far and feel terrible and ashamed about it, it's not even a question of dollars anymore; it's about getting back to a normal life. Depriving a human being of sleep on a long period has a very peculiar effect on the way you see things, enough to alter one's judgement, or so it seems.

Back to shop for a mattress but my tender half won't hear of a foam mattress. I now realize that the challenge in getting a spring mattress for a heavy person is to make the right compromise between support and comfort. Too much padding or week coils and you're going to sag and wake up with a back ache. Not enough padding or too hard coils and you won't sleep at all. It didn't use to be so complicated, but then again, I used to weight 160.

Is there anything more depressing than looking at mattresses scam ads and talking to salesmen who are bullshiting you all the time? I'd sooner go for root canal at the dentist...

P.S.: I have to say that the topper from Foambymail is well made, pretty much odourless and affordable but not as soft as I thought it would be. If anyone is afraid of ordering it because it's too soft, don't be.

Most of your body weight is in your lower torso area. Because of this your hips (on your side) or your rear end (on your back) will tend to sink in more because of that weight. Most zoned support systems (either coils or foam zoning) will usually put MORE support there to stop them from sinking in too far and putting your spine out of alignment. Simmons puts less support there so your hips or rear end would sink in more and the waist or lumbar area where the greater support is in this zoning scheme would be supporting more of your weight. This certainly isn't "normal" for most body weight distributions and even if your spine is in alignment this way, the small of your back (lumbar area) could be supporting too much weight. This is compounded by your weight and the guage of the backcare coils which are relatively thin and would make this effect even worse.

On the other hand, most people's shoulders have less weight than the hips but they are wider than the hips. They need to sink in more relative to the hips (especially with side sleeping). Zoning systems should reflect this by having a shoulder zone softer than the hips.

Basically multi zoning systems (more than 2 or 3) are more about marketing than real world performance since if there is a need for zoning in a typical mattress it is to have a firmer hip area relative to the shoulders. This could be accomplished by having a firmer hip area (typical 3 zone with a firmer zone in the middle which is most commonly what you see) or a softer shoulder area (2 zone which you rarely see). Both ways you would get closer to alignment based on the body makeup of most people.

If the zones are out or whack, not different enough, or reversed, then the comfort layers or a topper won't change the underlying "flaw". Hips typically need a soft comfort layer to distribute pressure since they are bearing more weight on the support layers. This softer comfort layer will also offer some support to the small of the back in a correct construction. In other words the comfort layers need to allow enough sinking in of the hips that there is not a "gap" between the mattress and the more "recessed" waist or lumbar area.

I really don't understand why Simmons does this ... it's truly wierd and different from other manufacturers ... and it's no wonder with your weight distribution that it's causing "issues".

Phoenix

I realize this is not ideal but for the cost of a fairly inexpensive 2" poly layer you could get a sense if this would help. 3" would probably be better but you could always add it and/or change material if you had a clear sense that this would help you. This is one of those cases where it would probably be a good thing to "diminish" the effect of the underlying support system by adding thicker layers.

Phoenix

Phoenix

First off, the NXG 250 is a SOFT mattress...the 250 represents 2.5'' of "new generation memory foam" hence the "NXG". Which model Backgaurd did you buy?

The BackGuard I got is a tight top, considered firm but not too firm.

A friend of mine who lives too far to go visit and try his mattress says he purchased the Hampton Inn set a few months ago and that he's extremely happy with it, even though he and his wife are on the heavy side. It's a Serta Tranquility Nights, plush tight top, two-sided mattress. I remember getting a good night sleep myself when we stayed at a Hampton Inn last year. I don't know if it would last a long time but if anyone has any opinion on it, I'd like to hear it.

It's a Serta Tranquility Nights, plush tight top, two-sided mattress. I remember getting a good night sleep myself when we stayed at a Hampton Inn last year. I don't know if it would last a long time but if anyone has any opinion on it, I'd like to hear it.

When I stayed at a Hampton Inn a couple of years ago, the first night was heaven and I thought I had found my bed.  It was a Serta with a thin pillowtop. Second night, not so great as I woke up with mild lower back pain in the a.m..  After the third night, when I couldn't touch my toes in the morning because my back was so stiff, I was glad we had stayed there three nights because I would have made an incorrect conclusion after only the first night.  Lesson to be learned:  no matter how comfortable a bed feels in the store, or after one night, you don't know for sure until multiple sleeps.

Your experience last night is encouraging because it at least gives some real clues about the direction you may need to go.

Phoenix

I just reread my earlier post and just to be clear ... the idea was to have 2" of firmer foam from the foot of your bed to just past your belly button and then 2" of softer foam from there to the head of your bed. This way you would still have an even top of your mattress. What you did though was a good idea and in the same "direction". It seemed to give a clear indication that this is the direction to go if you either choose to or have to keep the mattress.

So far, I found those two (also available with different variations from stores to stores):

http://www.sleepcountry.ca/mattress-accessories/mattresses/sub_categories/pocket_coil/products/4

http://www.sleepcountry.ca/mattress-accessories/mattresses/sub_categories/innerspring/products/1

They'd be both on the firm side to start with but I think they could become comfortable with the latex topper.

I have two questions. For someone as heavy as me, is it better to go with pocket coils or interlocked springs? Obviously, the Simmons seems to transfer less motion, which is a plus but I wonder if the Sealy might last longer and sag less, while being able to distribute the weight more evenly than the individual coils.

Also, different stores have different variations of the same models, without the center 1/3 Lumbar Support featured as an exclusivity in the Sleep Country models (same gage of coils for the whole bed but the 1/3 center of the mattress is reinforced instead of just two zones - lumbar and thighs, like on the BackGuard. The Simmons has slightly denser padding in the middle while the Sealy has its center reinforced with extra threading, or so I'm told. Sounds like a good idea for someone who is overweight but now I'm weary of zones altogether. Would you go with the stronger center or the even surface? Prices are similar.

I would not buy any mattress that I didn't know the details of what is inside it. It's just too risky. I would also be very careful buying a mattress that had a lot of polyfoam in the upper layers. Sleep Country has no details of what is in these mattresses. I would ask them for a layer by layer description and if they won't give it to you ... walk away.

If you have to buy from Sleep Country because of a mattress exchange, then get as many details as you can (coil count/size, coil guage, height of the mattress, special features, and any other details you can). This way the mattress can be matched to an outlet that provides the same or almost same mattress under a different name and does provide construction details. That information can help a lot to determine whether either mattress would be suitable for you.

My personal opinion which is probably shared with most people here is I would tend to stay away from "S" brand mattresses.

Phoenix

The Beautyrest has pretty much the same specs in all stores: 800 coils, 13.75 gage. Some have a reinforced middle (not sure I want that) or a padded contour but that's pretty much it, I didn't see any with latex. All the tight tops have a mix of PU foam and wool (probably very little wool). I know it's cheap and won't last but there isn't much of it, so I may get a few years out of it. Moreover, at this point, I just urgently need something to sleep on and can't afford to pay 2 or 3 more thousand dollars for a nice Marshall two-sided mattress (http://www.marshallmattress.com/index.html), having already lost 2K.

I decided to invest one more day into my quest, so I will visit two more stores tomorrow. Whatever the outcome, I have to try something new soon, having already suffered one month on a bed that literally brakes my back and is quickly turning me into a sore and obsessed zombie...

There are quite a few options there regarding latex. Let me look through my list and see what I can find. I'll post in an hour or two after I have done some stuff I need to do.

Phoenix

I would be a little careful about buying your next mattress so quickly. I know you are in pain but what looks good in that short a time could end up becoming another problem. You also have an option (the "zoning system I menioned earlier") that could ... at least temporarily ... alleviate your problem enough that you would have enough time to choose a mattress that would help you much more over the long term. The feeling of "I need to act now" is a recipe for choices you may not be happy with.

Another very inexpensive ... although temporary (months/years) would be to order a poly foam mattress from a place like the foam store that was suitable for your weight distribution and sleeping style.

Before any of this though ... I believe it is important to have an idea of the kind of mattress that was suitable for you ... without that you will probably tend to rely on how it "feels" in the store and possibly/probably end up spending more money on another "problem".

Have you experimented any more with the foam you had? Are you still considering trying your options I mentioned earlier both to give you some time and to find out what type of mattress would work for you? What is the size you are looking for and the midrange of your budget (the price you really don't want to go above but that you would consider exceeding for the perfect mattress at an amazing price)?

With the choices you have you should be able to solve all your mattress issues.

Phoenix

http://www.idealmattress.com/contact.html

http://www.factorymattress.com/contactus.html

http://www.dreameasy.com/contact-us

http://www.pafgroup.com/matresses.htm

http://www.sleepking.ca/index.php?page=contact_us.html

http://www.springtech.ca/

http://kingsandqueens-mattress.com/about_us.html

http://www.crate.ca/locations.htm

http://www.bestwaybedding.com/ Probably a ways away but I thought they were worth including

http://www.bbbedding.com/Affiliated-Locations.page

http://www.thefoamstore.ca/pro_mattresses.php

http://www.downundertoronto.com/sitepages/index.php?page_id=23

http://galaxybedding.ca/contactus.asp

http://www.flexopedicmattress.com/aboutus/

http://www.dreamstarbedding.com/contact.html

http://www.marshallmattress.com/Collection/Elite/Elite_Detail/superior.html

I should have mentioned that I actually live in Laval, QC. I have two jobs so it’s very difficult for me to dedicate a lot of time to this problem (not to mention the tensions it has created on my marriage) but I intend to take a look at what this manufacturer has to offer: http://www.matelasbourck.qc.ca. There’s a few more, such as Mirabel and Dauphin but I know very little about them and I have no way of knowing if what they make is actually better or worse than the 3 S, mattresses remaining a blind purchase. I’m still going to investigate each of the links you provided. For instance, this might work: http://kingsandqueens-mattress.com/madrid.html.

I know there’s a great risk of making another mistake by rushing into something but somehow, it just seems hard to believe that there wouldn’t be many mattresses out there that could work for me. However, having said that, I did learn the hard way that getting a new bed once you’ve gained a lot of weight can prove to be a considerable challenge and that I have to be weary of anything that is zoned or too soft. Most people are simply advising me to go with the firmest mattress I can find and add toppers to it (as much as it will take), or else it will sag quickly. One of the independent manufacturers told me today over the phone that because of my weight, I should not even consider continuous coil and stick with pocket coils. He advised to stick with the hardest model he has and that’s it. That came as a shock to me as I never fully realized until now that I have become an anomaly and that being this heavy narrowed down my choices so much since I had never before had a problem sleeping in any hotels or motels and I do travel a lot. I was also sleeping fine on our old mattress (too bad I didn’t keep it). So far, I only attributed this ordeal on making wrong choices but it seems that I fall into a category that is too extreme for “regular” mattresses.

Ideally, I’m guessing I would need a tight top with strong pocket coils (gage 13 or perhaps 12) and little padding, mostly latex if possible; firm enough that my rear end sinks just a little. I know that Simmons has a World Class model (980 coils, gage 13.75, same as there was in the NXG 250) with just a little poly and latex. This mattress alone runs around 1300$ on this side of the border and I’m not sure it’s worth spending twice as much on it than I would on a firm Classic, on which I could throw my own latex topper. Of course, if I’d be absolutely certain that this is what I need; I would splurge another 1500 dollars and go for it. It’s just that after making huge and costly mistake, one tends to err of the caution side...

Yes, I did experiment some more and played musical toppers but haven’t yet find any solution to the “hump” problem. Granted, I could purchase enough firm poly to fill the 3 zones that are lower and then throw a thick topper over it but since that would be a temporary solution at best; I don’t want to throw anything else into this money pit. Right now, I rely on sleeping pills to fall asleep and wake up 3 or 3 hours later in horrible pain. I can’t stay any longer. I know I can’t keep this up much longer, hence my hurry.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

In general terms I believe that you can expect to get better value from almost all local or regional manufacturers than you can by going with any of the "S" brands. They all use way too much poly in all their mattresses that are anywhere close to your budget and even the ones that don't are way overpriced compared to almost all the other options you have.

If you did buy a mattress sight unseen, then in your case it should be firm springs over a thinner layer that you could use as a base for customized layers over it. Even good innersprings with a natural cotton/wool stuffing would be suitable here. Zoning in your case could also be very useful ... it would just have to be correct. The "S" brands don't make anything like this that would be suitable IMO. They all have too much poor quality poly over the springs that would make them completely unsuitable to use as a base. Almost all local manufacturers do make something that would be suitable however if you explain what you plan to do. In this group some have much greater value than others but in my experience even the worst of them are typically better value than most of what is available from the S brands.

If you plan to go with buying something sight unseen along these lines, post here first as I certainly know a few places that would be suitable and have good value.

A very high quality poly base with latex over it would be another option that would likely work at a much lower cost and with similar benefits to all latex. The tradeoff here would be the support base would not last quite as long as latex but the higher quality polyfoams that are available and used in support cores are relatively long lasting and good quality. It is in the materials used ... especially by the S manufacturers ... in the upper layers where most of the polyfoam problem exists.

Let me know what direction you want to go if you think I can help in any way.

Phoenix.

Phoenix

http://www.fabricantdematelas.com/en/manufacturer/pocket-spring-mattresses.html

http://www.matelasbourck.qc.ca/matelas_intro.html

http://www.matelasalhorizontal.com/en/index.php

http://www.matelasavanti.com/produits.html

http://www.matelasrene.com/

http://www.matelas-personnel.com/index.html

http://www.matelasorthopedique.com/en/index.html#

http://www.mirabelmat.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1

http://www.matelasconfort.com/matelas/index.php

http://www.literielaurier.com/en/deta/index.php?produitid=21

http://www.zedbed.com/mattress.html

https://catalogue.matelasdauphin.com/products/1-Mattresses/

http://www.matelaslapensee.ca/en/produits/produits.php

http://kaymedcanada.com/products.asp

http://www.myessentia.com/

http://www.primointernational.com/

This morning, I tried this Simmons Millenium Goose Bay, which felt pretty good in the Plush Firm (13.5 gage coils). What do you think of it?

Click on Simmons, Millenium and then Goose Bay.

If I was "forced" to go with polyfoam in the upper layers by budget (was looking at spending under $500 or likely even less), I would still buy from a manufacturer who could tell me the exact qualities of every layer and how long I could reasonably expect those layers to keep their qualities. I do not believe that the "S" companies can compete with good smaller manufacturers as their supply chain is too long. They are great for testing what feels good for duplication purposes in certain cases but I would not buy one.

Given your choices and the issues you are facing, I would not even consider a major manufacturer with only very few exceptions (and these exceptions are not "S" companies).

Phoenix

PS: for some reason you seem to really like Simmons

Our last mattress, which lasted almost 20 years, was a Simmons and they use pocket coils, which is why I tend to check them out more. My plan B is still to get the firm Classic. I know it wouldn't last very long but I could be sleeping on it 24 hours after purchasing it and it can be had for about 650, which is still a lot of money for 3 or 4 years of use but it would solve my problem quickly.

Been diagnosed with two herniated discs this morning. Didn't come as a big surprise but still, not pleasant news to hear. I finally gave up on the Backguard two nights ago and been sleeping on an el cheapo inflatable mattress in the basement. Much better! Probably inflated a tad too much because my hips are sore but my back isn't killing me as much, although still very painful. At least, there is no hump. I won't be able to keep this set up much longer though, since we are expecting guests next week.

I checked out Matelas Bourck this afternoon. Very nice little place. They have a mattress that could be of interest in their Classic series.

http://www.matelasbourck.qc.ca/classique.html

 It's the President. Two-sided, 608 coils, only one inch of 2.2 lb poly on each side. Extra-firm. I wouldn't be able to sleep on it as is (even my wife found it way too hard) but it would make a solid base. It's affodable (around 840) and covered with an excellent warranty. The owner says he's been making them for 20 years and it used to be the best mattress he had. He only changed the fabric on top.

Will keep looking.

I don't know if this is the best option available as my ability to read some of the sites is a little limited (I can get a sense of them in french but not every detail) and none of them have any prices attached. I did notice though that a retail store I was looking at had dreameasy mattresses and they also seemed to be a reasonable option within your general budget and had some (about 2") of latex on what seemed like HR foam on top of coils ... although they didn't have all the construction details. I get a sense that some of the others also have some very high quality mattresses but without seeing their prices either on their site or at a retail outlet that carries them I just don't know where they fit in terms of price.

I also tend to find that the advice that comes from the smaller manufacturers is often (though not always) much better so if I was in your shoes I would probably call them and explain your back issues including the problems you had with your previous mattress ... tell them your budget ... and see what they say. I have found that I accomplish on the phone in an hour of preliminary calling what it would otherwise take many hours to do. It would probably help you target where to go and save you quite a bit of time. The more specific your questions, including their prices, the better the information you will get. Once you have a sense of the prices on a few mattresses, the rest of the website or at least similar mattresses tends to be easier to predict. You would likely get a pretty clear picture fairly quickly which ones offer the best value.

Phoenix

Having said that though ... you are in the budget range of an all latex mattress where you can choose your layers and exchange a layer at low cost if you don't "get it right". I believe also that you could probably do better than 1.5" of latex over springs in terms of cost ... even though it is 2 sided. If I was in your shoes, not really sure about "what was best" and considering purchasing a mattress I had never tried, then how easy and inexpensive it was to exchange for a different option would play a major role in my buying decisions. If you look in the thread "searching for a mattress in quad cities" you will see some options for an all latex mattress where exchanging either a layer or a whole mattress is a relatively simple and inexpensive process. I realize you are in Canada and "time is of the essence" but even with the extra shipping, exchange rate, and GST when it crosses the border outlets similar to these would probably represent better value for you.

Perhaps even more importantly, I would think based on what I have seen that there is probably better value available from some of the Canadian or even more specifically Quebec outlets I have seen. Sometimes though it is important to go with what you know in a more "urgent" environment and if the springs in this mattress are of good quality, strong, and suitable for you then it may be worth paying more as long as you know that you may very well need a topper over this.

I also believe that this would be a better choice than any of the "S" brands you were considering.

Have you phoned any of the others? I would be giving them a quick call and asking something like "I have some serious back issues etc ... here is my "statistics" (weight and body distribution), and I am looking for a mattress that either has 3" of latex over good quality springs, good quality HR poly, or an all latex mattress ... do you have anything like this and what would it cost me? Their specific answer to this (I don't mean a general answer like "Of course we do ... why don't you come in and take a look") would tell you a lot. You will very quickly find out who is happy too put their value up against anyone else and who depends on you being in their showroom to make a sale. BTW this applies to retail outlets as well. I would NEVER go somewhere I had not called first to find out what they knew and the level of advice and information they were willing to offer over the phone.

Phoenix

Phoenix

Phoenix

Is there anything worthwhile at Costco? Anyone has first hand experience with gel toppers?

http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=10339545&search=topper&Mo=10&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-CA&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Sp=S&N=0&whse=BCCA&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ne=4000000&D=topper&Ntt=topper&No=4&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

There's is also this one: http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=10319411&search=topper&Mo=10&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-CA&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Sp=S&N=0&whse=BCCA&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ne=4000000&D=topper&Ntt=topper&No=3&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

Phoenix

PS: I don't believe that either of the Costo options would be even close to suitable. This is not the "buckling column" gel that you may have seen discussed on the forum and has none of it's benefits. It's basically just inexpensive (don't want to say cheap) low density memory foam.

If I go with latex, should I order another inch or two more inches? Or perhaps 1.5 like this? http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/E.C.O.-Luxury-Latex-Queen-size-1.5-inch-Mattress-Topper/3478991/product.html

If you really want to experiment with it then at least the overstock is cheap enough and good quality (if it really is Sensus 5 LB as what you get from them may very well be different from what they advertise) that you could buy 3" of it and see how it goes.

If you go with latex, you may get away with one more inch (that would give you 2" over the poly in your mattress) and you could then add another inch later. I suspect that you might need 2 more though.

Phoenix

PS: If you link to another mattress forum or a mattress magazine or discussion or rating site that allows advertising, your link and/or your post will get deleted (which is probably what happened with your post that had the link to the specs of your new mattress) as it is considered to be direct competition to this one ... just so you know. I found this out as well when I did the same thing in some of my posts.

They do this to make a firm mattress by using soft foam that you will sink through more so you will feel the firmness of the springs more. They use the same or similar foam to make a mattress feel plush except they use thicker layers so you don't feel the springs as much and they also often use softer (thinner gauge) springs as well.

So even though there is much less poly here ... I would be wary about sinking in too far and use the least amount of layers on top that works for you.

Phoenix

For that reason perhaps, the first night was more difficult than I had anticipated, even though I used everything I had at my disposition. I layered the inch of latex, one inch of cheap egg crate from Wall-Mart, a small (about my width), thin (perhaps 3/4) and very soft piece of foam that I used for camping a long time ago and then an old and beaten quilt, made of polyester. Even with all of this, I was only able to sleep 4 hours until it became too uncomfortable. The pressure is mostly even, between the hips all the way to the shoulders, so I know that it's flat. I can only stay 5 minutes on my back (but in my present condition, that is true for pretty much any surface I lay on) so I alternated between sides. I stayed up 3 hours and went back in for 3 more hours.

I remember breaking in the 250 and it was even worst for the first 3 or 4 weeks, until it slowly got better, so I have a little bit of hope. In the meantime, I thought I could try something from Costco (since I can always return it and get a full refund) or another cheap topper from Wall-Mart, that I would use instead of the quilt. Perhaps I should invest more and get the 3 inches of latex from Costco to replace all the toppers I am using right now?

http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=10340594&search=topper&Mo=10&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-CA&Nr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Sp=S&N=0&whse=BCCA&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BCCA&Ne=4000000&D=topper&Ntt=topper&No=2&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

A friend says I should put the mattress on the floor and let my wife walk on it for a few minutes, to accelerate the breaking in. I don't know if this is a good idea or not...

Their "standard" pocket coil is 15.5 gauge coils which is re-inforced on the edge with 2 rows of 13.25 gauge coils.

They have many different names for their "firm" mattresses such as extra firm, luxury firm, plush firm, ultra firm, cushion firm, and more depending on the store selling it and where in the lineup it fits. The only one they actually call just firm is their studio model which has shorter coils (some stores don't differentiate and just say firm for any of their variants).

Some versions of their firm are made with the thinner coils with less foam on top. This makes it feel firm even though it has the thinner coils.

Some versions of their firm are made with the thicker coils (13.75 gauge) with a little more foam on top. This makes it feel firm as well. Their "extra firm" is like this and it is usually a thicker mattress (about 1/2 inch thicker) than their "luxury firm" since it uses more foam with stronger coils of the same height. I know that this is weird since their extra firm uses more foam and you would think it's the other way around.

Because of this ... I don't know which one your mattress is. If it's the extra firm then you have thicker stronger coils with more poly, if it's the luxury firm you have thinner weaker coils with less poly. To make matters worse, many places will tell you something like "it has 13.25 gauge coils" and this may be true for the outer 2 rows but the rest of the mattress may be 15.5. They may not even know this. Even their strongest pocket coils are not as strong as other manufacturers or types of innersprings and may not be as suitable for heavier weights.

Usually ... the "extra" firm or the "plush" firm have the stonger coils but with different thicknesses and/or types of foam on top but this may not always be true in every store.

Usually ... the "luxury" firm has the thinner coils with slightly less poly than the "extra" but this also may not be true in every store.

Of course this "confusion" is compounded with the many many different names used for the same mattress and by the fact that as you go up in the range the spring/poly parts of this change a bit. (using more and different foams etc). But yours is the "basic" model which means it's either extra firm or luxury firm.

So ... you either have thinner coils with less poly or thicker coils with more poly. Both would feel firm and be called "firm".

In either case the difference in poly terms is about 3/8" of poly which is not so much. The difference in coil terms is more.

In your case I am hoping (and guessing) that you have the stronger coils with a little more foam but the description you linked to earlier would be similar to the construction of the luxury firm (It said you had 13.25 gauge and this was probably wrong in either case since this is the gauge of the edge coils. Assuming they meant 13.75, either the amount of poly or the coil gauge was incorrect in their description).

The bottom line is this ... I would use the thinnest firmest layer of toppers that would give you the pressure relief you need.

Thinner because you don't want to "build a complete mattress" over the coils so that the coils can "help" with the pressure relief and compress a bit which would help them support you and prevent your heavier parts from sinking in too far (compressed coils give more support). If you go too thick, you will get the pressure relief from the thicker layer but the coils would also compress and put you out of alignment.

Slightly firmer (but not so firm it causes pressure issues) because you want any help you can get with alignment issues ... even if it comes from the comfort layers.

You could certainly try the 3" costco latex topper but I would definitely call them first to find out the ILD since I didn't see it on the site. At least Costco's return policy makes it easier to experiment :)

And I wouldn't "break it in" by walking on it. This is usually more appropriate for some types of memory foam or for high end mattresses that need "re-distributing" in their comfort layers (similar to massaging them). With this type and construction of mattress all you are likely to do is make it wear out faster. I wouldn't do anything to "speed up" the breakdown of the poly.

Phoenix

I'm going to experiment tonight by sleeping on the eggcrate (3/4 of an inch + the latex folded in two, for a total of 2.75 inches. I just made the bed this way and I know for a fact that I wouldn't want to have more than 3 inches of foam alltogether. So it's either the 3 inches from Costco by itself or another inch of latex, probably from Foambymail (they only have 20 and 32 ILD, so I'm not sure what would be best to go for).

I'm still hoping the springs will start giving in within a few weeks since they're not as strong and there is less of them as there was in the NXG (13.25 vs 13.75 - 980 vs 800). Of course, if it does, I would have purchased the Costco topper for nothing.

This is so frustrating. Why does it have to be so complicated?!

They complicate it just to prevent the kind of consumer education that would cause their sales to suffer.

I would probably tend to a known ILD as foam by mail may be risky in terms of what you actually get. Some of the stories on the forum have confirmed that sometimes you get what you order and sometimes you don't get even close.

If the topper from Costco is in a reasonable range of ILD (and I'd call them first just to check), then this is the way I'd probably go if for no other reason than their return policy.

If the springs start "giving" in a few weeks (as opposed to the foam) enough to make a difference, then that would be bad news since they should be consistent over many years. You want the springs to remain firm and use the comfort layers to provide pressure relief.

Phoenix

What range of ILD would you consider suitable if I go with the 3 inches from Costco? If only purchasing another inch, who should I go with that doesn't charge an arm and a leg to deliver in Canada? FBM was pretty cheap all the way around. Only bad thing is that it took a full 2 weeks from the time I ordered to get the parcel.

I'd probably be looking for around 24 ILD give or take (it's impossible for me to know for sure without some specific feedback from you knowing what latex you have laid on and how it felt)

I really like the rejuvenite but you'd have to call and see what it would cost to ship. If the 28 worked it would be great and the 19 may be OK too but probably a little soft for you.

The STL one is a great deal but I'm pretty sure it's 14 ILD which I think would be too soft. Don't know if they ship  to Canada or how much.

In general I would probably go with either places like Costco and Sams club for the return policy or mattresses.net and sleepez since they seem to have the best price/selection combination and you won't go far wrong with either of them. Make sure about shipping to Canada and returns first though. Also make sure they are either covered or that you order a cover with them as latex breaks down without one. I wouldn't take the chance on just covering them with sheets or a mattress pad.

Dunlop in a little softer ILD's is another option that may work and when I have the chance I'll post some sources for that as well that weren't in the Talalay list.

A few more that I haven't had a chance to check out in in any real detail yet are ...

http://foamandhomedecor.com/foam.php#latexfoam Canadian but don't know their prices

http://www.supremecomfort.com/shipping.htm They may have a warehouse in Canada that ships toppers

http://www.tmasc.ca/latextoppers.html Canadian. They sell Natura toppers that are very nice but they're a little on the high side (being diplomatic here :))

http://www.idealmattress.com/index.html Canadian and it doesn't say so on their site but they may have toppers

http://www.foamite.com/mat_other.php Canadian and sells Dunlopillo but rather expensive.

http://www.dreameasy.com/products/100-natural-latex Canadian and might sell toppers

http://www.snugsleep.com/latex-toppers.html Canadian and sell toppers but they're Dunlop and probably cheaper to buy from US. Don't know for sure

http://www.discountfoam.ca/usesoffoam/usesoffoam.htm Canadian but I don't know if they sell latex

http://www.foamshop.com/ourProducts.shtml Canadian but I don't know if they sell latex

http://www.bfffoamcorp.com/products.php?id=35 Canadian but I don't know if they sell to little guys like us. Would sure be worth a call

http://www.thefoamking.com/mattress-toppers.html Canadian but I don't know if they sell latex

http://www.sureline.ca/mattressproducts.html Canadian and sell Resilitex which is "fake" latex with similar properties. Don't know if they have actual latex

http://www.thefoamstore.ca/pro_mattresses.php Canadian and doesn't look like they carry latex but may be worth a call

http://www.foamorder.com/clearance.html#foam-toppers These guys are American but often have some pretty good deals in their clearance section. They sell Talalay and Dunlop but mostly Dunlop.

There's more (including checking out local foam shops) but I still plan to fill in the blanks regarding Canadian sources for toppers (and other things). For now the best prices may be ordering from the US and shipping across the border. It may also be worth calling some of the Toronto and Quebec manufacturers I listed earlier to see if they will sell you a topper as well.

Phoenix

I contacted Foam and Home Decor, waiting for a reply.

I have a feeling that my back is in a state of shock right now, so to speak. Even lying on the couch or sitting in my old chair starts to hurt within minutes while they use to be comfortable enough for me to watch a whole movie. I'm therefore unable to make any valid statement about what feels comfortable or not, just what hurts more or less...

Now that we have a "more suitable base" I want to just review some of your options and also confirm what you have to "play" with.

My understanding is that you have a 1" piece of latex of unknown ILD bought from foambymail (unknown because you never know exactly what you get from them and it feels firmer than the 20 you had ordered), 3/4' of soft eggcrate, and you were mentioning earlier that you also had a 2.5" piece of quality foam as well. Would you say this piece is softer or firmer than the doubled or tripled latex? ... and how big is it (does it cover the whole mattress?)

It would also help to know what kind of pillow you are usually using.

Phoenix

If you have a thin firm blanket (say wool but any thin firm piece of material that is big enough... even a thick flat sheet, carpet underlay etc) ... fold it in 3 ... and then lay it sideways over the middle third of your bed and tuck it under. It should be under your hip/lumbar area but not under your ribcage. If the material is thicker (carpet underlay etc) then just double it but make sure it is laying up to but not under your ribcage.

Double up your latex and put it on your side of the bed over the material. Double up your eggcrate and put it on top of the latex. You should now have 1.5" of eggcrate over 2" of latex over the middle third support material over your mattress.

Take a look at the drawing here http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/my-design-custom-sleep-design/16344-0-1.html and you will see what I've been trying to "simulate" before you buy anything.

Lets see what happens.

And the pillow?

Phoenix

If I understand well, you want me to slightly thicken the bottom part of the bed, under the toppers, starting from my lumbar area? I see what you have in mind, that would help my shoulders sink in a bit more while providing some relief on my rib cage. You'd like me to test it for a short while or spend a whole night that way?

Phoenix

 At this point, I'm considering 3 scenarios:

1. Purchase the 3' latex topper from Costco to replace everything I have on the bed and give that a try. If I like it and decide to keep it, it will prove to be an expensive solution but I'd probably be so happy that I wouldn't care as much. If it doesn't work, I can always return it.

2. Do nothing as of yet and wait another week or two to see how things evolve and if things keep improving. I have a feeling it might to a certain degree but I highly doubt the bed would ever be comfy enough that we could enjoy sleeping late or let me read in bed for hours, like I used to do on my old bed. I know some people say the bed only needs to be comfortable enough to fall asleep in it but I’m looking for a little more softness, enough to be able to fall asleep even when you’re not completely exhausted!

3. Order another inch of soft latex from FBM and the terry cloth bag to have a full 2 inches of latex as a base. If the bed ever gets too soft, I could simply remove the egg crate, which won't last very long and will eventually have to be replaced anyway. If this is still not good enough, I could resort to add an inch of good quality memory foam. People here mentioned Sensus and Aerus I believe. Is using a single inch of memory foam a good idea to add just a little softness without make you sink too much?

I know the memory foam is probably tempting but I would tend to stay away from it in your case simply because it has little resilience and will not help in any way with support even though it may with pressure. You are one of those "difficult" cases that has issues with both pressure and support and this is compounded with the weight. The memory foam would add softness but I I really think it's risky in your case because you have both pressure and alignment issues and the only materials that have qualities that can help with both are latex or HR poly.

The costco topper is the same ILD throughout and I believe that in your case your upper body needs something softer than your hips. The only reason I would consider the latex from Costco at this point is because you can return it ... and because you never know whether your actual experience would be different from what you might otherwise expect.

I called Costco to find out the ILD for my own information as well and they didn't know so are checking with the manufacturer and will call me back in a day or two. They did tell me that the "manufacturer" was Literielaurier (they thought they actually made the latex which of course they don't) so I called them to find out if they sell toppers to the general public and they do! The person who would know more about prices and options was busy with a customer so I left a message on his voicemail and he'll call me back. I'll post here when I get more information.

Phoenix

I'll wait to hear the details you'll get from the latex from Costco before going there. Too bad the 2' model is only available in twin and double.

In any case he told me that the Costco topper was 40 ILD which would probably be too firm for you. It comes from LI.

He also told me that the Quebecois also like their latex either really soft or really firm so the toppers they sell from stock are 19, 40, and 44. When I told him that the people here would likely want a greater range as there are many who build their own mattresses, he said he could get it in other ILD's as well. They do a lot of latex volume and have a good relationship with LI. He will email me tomorrow with the prices for queen in 2" and 3" so we can get an idea of how they do price wise. They will also cover it for an extra cost.

It wouldn't surprise me if your quilt was giving you as much or more "support" than memory foam just from surface tension (depending on what it is and how it lays) but every inch of "lost support" would add up in your case. An inch of memory foam and an inch of soft poly could cause too much sinking in for your back to like it even if the rest was latex. Latex in the softer ILD's will usually relieve pressure (almost) as well as memory foam. I would also really make sure that you know the ILD of what you are buying as there is such a range that the wrong ILD, especially in a thicker layer, could really aggravate the problem.

Phoenix

That old quilt is really worn out, a bit uneven and not tight at all. I only use it because it softens up the surface a little. I tried it without and the bed is a little harder. I put it over top of the mattress pad, which is holding the egg crate and the latex together, so it doesn't move. The pad does however tightens things up and the surface is not cushy at all, just a tightly stiched cotton. I know I need support but I'm certain that some of the pain I have (lower back and hips) comes from pressure, hence my hurry to find a fix. Even ordering today would give at least a full two weeks before delivery. Today, I had to hold myself not to rush to Walmart and get the cheap 1.5 inches Simmons (*LOL*) memory foam pad...

In other words the core can "help" the upper layers distribute downwards pressure and improve comfort and the upper layers can "help" the core to target upwards pressure and improve support.

The "progressive" resilience qualities of either the springs or the core materials along with the ability to "target" pushback through "point" compression as opposed to "broad" compression are key parts of how different mattress constructions provide support to different sleeping styles and body weight/measurement distributions.

Phoenix

http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/70163102 which felt not too soft and somewhat supportive.

150$ for the queen size. I brought it home and will try it along with the latex (took off the quilt and egg crate foam). Should I put the latex on top or under?

"As request topper Talalay latex ILD 40

Queen topper 2 inches 189.00

Queen topper 3 inches 269.00

Queen topper 2 inches with cover Bamboo quilt with wool 249.00

Queen topper 3 inches with cover Bamboo quilt with wool 329.00"

Their prices seem very reasonable indeed (especially when you consider lower shipping, no exchange, and no cross border hassles) and they would probably be the same or similar in other ILD's and similar value in other sizes. I am impressed with their cover and pricing there as well. This is one of the few times where I've seen better value in Canada than an equivalent in the US.

As far as latex on top or under the poly I'm not sure as I would need to know the ILD, density, and quality (HR, HD, or something else) of the poly and the "real" ILD of your latex to give a more "thought out" suggestion. I would "probably" try the poly under the latex first though and give it a couple of days before you switch.

Phoenix

Just made the bed and I set it up with the poly under. Still feels firm but a tad softer than before. Strangely enough, even though the latex foam feels softer than the poly, it seems to give more "pushback". If my arm goes numb again, I'll switch and see. I could also try the poly along with the egg crate. Hours and hours of fun....

2.2 lb foam, this should last how long?

If it really is 2.2 HR poly and made by a good manufacturer ... it should last you a long time ... meaning years. It would last longer under something else than it would on top of the mattress.

The only thing missing in the description (unless I missed it) is the ILD. This in combination with not knowing the ILD of your latex (which from foambymail is always unknown) makes it a little difficult to "theoretically predict" what layering would be best so we'll just have to go with your personal experience here. Typically though the HR denser poly that you more commonly find has a higher ILD although it is available in much softer ILD's as well ... it's just a little harder to find.

The next option I would try after a couple of nights on this one and depending on your "sleep all night" or at least your "sleep part of the night" experience would be the eggcrate over these two layers.

Phoenix

If you go with poly you need information like this ... http://www.foam-futon.com/foamspecs.html. As you can see from the specs on the 1.8 poly, it can range from soft to firm with the same density. If you go to foamdistributing.com (foam by mail) you will see everything there that would be suitable is mid 30's and higher. Same with foamorder.com. Without knowing the ILD of a polyfoam you buy it's pretty safe to assume it will be in the 30's or higher.

What i would suggest if you can is to take a trip to literie laurier (not sure exactly how far it is from you to montreal) and lay on their 3" 19 ILD over 40 ILD mattress. This will give you a sense of what an accurate 19 ILD over a firm (like your innerspring) 40 ILD core feels like and will give you a way to know if what you have is softer or harder. They probably even have latex over springs which would be even better. You need known quantities as reference points to make real progress. I would try to spend at least an hour there so you can also try other ILD's and thicknesses they may have. If you lay on this combination (or others they may have) for at least 10 minutes in your normal sleeping position as relaxed as you can be, you will likely get a sense of how close a combination is and get a much clearer sense about what might work than any random assortment of layers where you don't know exactly what you have. They may also have good memory foam which would give you a chance to try that as well. I also suspect that they would give you some good feedback if you take your time there and tell them what you are facing.

In the meantime for tonight ... and given what you have said ... I would go as soft as I could which probably (guessing here) means the eggcrate over the poly over the latex.

If by soft memory foam you mean low density like 3 lbs over your springs ... it would destroy you unless it was on top of something else. You would go right through it. Higher density memory foam can actually be just as soft or even softer (distribute pressure much better) than low density (like polyfoam which it really is). You want honey (denser) not water (less dense) to distribute pressure..

A cuddle bed is just a soft puffy layer that needs to be on top of something as well. By itself on your springs it would also probably destroy you.

More than anything you need reference points ... either by buying known quantities or preferably by going somewhere and laying on known quantities first which would likely be the fastest way to get to what you need.

Phoenix

It's strange how the layering can make such a difference. I have come to realize that while the latex does a much better job at redistributing weight than regular foam, it may not be ideal as a top layer in my situation. Under the foam, it acts more like a suspension on a car.

I would be a little careful about reacting to one nights sleep or making any assumptions based on a single night though. 2 nights on a particular layout would be much better. I would especially not make any assumptions based on a single inch of latex. The foam on top is HR foam which means high resiliency and given that it is thicker and may have higher resiliency and/or sag factor even than the latex (some HR foams do) this could be what is giving the effect you are describing. If you make any changes based on believing that an inch of latex can cause "springiness" then it is likely that the next step you take could make things worse again.

I would go very slowly and make sure you really know "why" something is happening before taking another step.

Did you have the eggcrate on top of this?

Phoenix

From page 4 here: http://www.pfa.org/intouch/pdf/ntouch51.pdf

The very minimum requirements for a foam to be regarded as HR is ... Density of 2.5 lbs/cu ft, Resiliency of 60%, and Support factor (also called sag factor or compression modulus) of 2.4 - 1. They can be any ILD from very soft to very hard.

These numbers are the very minimum and while these are still below latex, many HR foams are higher than latex in resiliency and/or sag factor.

I know I'm ahead of myself but I'm so desperate right now that any positive sign is a welcome blessing that lets me hang on. I don't wish for anyone to go through the pain and the despair I've encountered. The pain was so great at times that I even considered ending my life on some nights. LIfe is miserable when you can't sit, lay down or stand without hurting. I've vowed to lose 100 lbs. and so far, I've lost 18.

If I add the inch of foam inside my mattress, I'm currently sleeping on 4 inches over the coils. Is that an average amount? I know it depends on the type and quality of foam but how much is usually needed for someone my size?

You are well within range and still have room given your weight and the types of materials that are available. It is really important to go slow though because in the end this will lead to a solution MUCH more quickly than a more random approach based on assumptions that may not be correct.

I really do realize what you are facing and this is why I'm suggesting caution and an "analytical" approach.

Did you try the eggcrate wih this specific combination or with a different combination. It will make "some" difference even though it is cheap and you go through it.

Phoenix

I wonder who could sleep on the mattress I have on its own. It would have to be someone really light? 

As far as who would sleep on it ... probably someone who was lighter, likes a very firm feeling mattress (doesn't like the feeling of sinking in to a mattress), and doesn't sleep on their side (probably a stomach sleeper but possibly back).

Phoenix

Egg crate flat side up? Why? To prevent it from sinking as much? I thought that putting it this way would firm things up.

I'm glad you went without the topper one more night so we have 2 nights experience without. So for tonight I would put the eggcrate on flat side up and see how it feels.

Phoenix

Just so you know as well ... the softness of this layer won't come from the eggcrate ... but from all 3 layers combined. If the bumps up causes you to sink too far into a deeper layer ... then it could actually feel harder. In another thread I mentioned that every change needs to take into account the effect on every layer. A softer thin layer on top can actually in some cases make a bed feel harder. While it's likely that the egg crate either way won't make much difference ... the belief that it will feel softer overall by having a softer side up is not necessarily correct. The goal of the eggcrate is not to provide softness by itself ... It's to help you sink into a lower layer just enough that the lower layer will still feel soft. Slow and methodical will work here ... random or possible incorrect assumptions will make things much more difficult.

Phoenix

Don't forget too to resist the temptation to "fix" your mattress with any combination of these 3 layers. If it does that would be a surprising bonus. What we are looking for is to learn the effect of certain changes so we can better predict which type of additional layer would give us the greatest odds of working and where to put that layer.

Phoenix

Another interesting development is that with this configuration, I wasn't able to sleep with a single pillow, on my side anyway. I ended up using two and I took away 80% of the numbness in my arms.

Now we're getting some great feedback and information. One more night with this (reversing the topper if you'd like but no big deal) and we'll take a look at where we are.

Phoenix

I'll post some thoughts tomorrow afer you've had a chance to (hopefully) get some rest tonight.

Phoenix

Phoenix

This thread has been particularly challenging because we have been working with only thin layers and not enough material or known quantities to make it likely we could even find a solution with what you have. Thin layers also act differently from thicker layers and predicting the effect of thicker layers (which I believe you need) by extrapolating what happens with thinner unknown quantities is very difficult. Even this is compounded with the polyfoam on top of the bed which is certainly thinner but still a little too much for my liking. It could still cause enough hammocking to cause a problem in your case given your sensitivity and weight. It's also difficult to tell which part of the pain and/or improvement you have been feeling has been from the mattress layering and which part from residual effects or just from rapid change itself. However I believe we have enough information now to make some good choices.

OPTION 1. I would suggest a 3" latex topper. I would go to Literie Laurier and try out their 19 ILD and see how it feels on a very firm surface. Lay quietly on it and bounce a bit with your hips and shoulder to see if you can feel an obvious firmer layer underneath. I would think you would, at least with your hips, as I believe your critical zone is deeper than 3". Feeling the layer underneath is expected and wanted and we are not trying to avoid this. It is a matter of how much you feel it not if you feel it (we want a little less rather than more). If you can and if they have it I would also try something a little firmer such as 24. Same thing here about feeling the layer below. It is clear to me that you will need at least 3" over what you have and that your "critical zone" is probably in the range of 4" depending on what you have. I would normally try to include the soft poly in that 4" but it may be too soft and may cause hammocking so if anyhing I may want to use an inch or two of something a little firmer under the 3" topper besides the poly in your mattress. I would save the pieces you have now for adjustments before returning them. We may even need to firm up the poly in the mattress by placing something thin and firmer between it and the mattress (center zoning but below your critical zone) such as I suggested in an earlier part of this thread.

What you felt under the 3" layer of either ILD would be very helpful and it would be my clear preference that you did this whether you actually bought from them or not.

OPTION 2. Same as above but ordering the topper with known specs without trying it at all (NOT FBM) from an outlet with a return policy. We need to make absolutely sure of the ILD (my preference would be 24 unless you try the 19 at literie laurier and believe it is clearly better on a firm surface). This is important for success.

With either of these options I believe that we will have the layers we will need for a solution (as long as you keep the 2" poly and 1" latex you have for now).

OPTION 3. Ordering 2 pieces of 3" HR poly with KNOWN and exact specs (to be decided if you choose this option) so we can try a manual zoning scheme like I was suggesting earlier in the thead. After these 2 pieces were cut you would have a consistent 3" layer over your mattress (no humps) but the ILD of the upper part would be lower than the lower part. I believe that this too along with what you have would also give us what you need for a final solution. It would involve a little more work to cut the foam layers in the right places.

Again I can't stress enough that these are my best suggestions but that they may not be right on the money because of the challenges in testing we have been facing. I do believe though that any of the 3 options would give you the materials that you would need to get to a final layering scheme that would give you a much more restful sleep. I also believe that some of your pain will re-occur regardless of a mattress at this point and that it will take time to heal but that a better mattress will go a long way to helping that to happen.

So if you can give a report tomorrow after you sleep tonight, we can confirm these suggestions and you can decide which option (if any) is your preference.

Almost there :)

Phoenix

Without the egg crate, the bed didn't feel that much different. Pressure was felt from upper thigh to shoulder, with an emphasis on shoulder and upper part of rib cage. I still managed to get a decent night of sleep, just had to toss and turn a little more to deal with shoulder numbness. I have tried different pillows and will continue to do so. Bed isn't quite as comfortable on my back as it was with the egg crate but still passable. Very comfortable on my stomach (with only one pillow) but something strange is happening when I take this position: whenever I lift a leg sideway (a bit like a frog) and up, I hear and feel some cracking in my spine, just like when you crack your fingers. Can't say it's very painful but it's weird and not reassuring. The good news is that my lower back has improved since the pillowtop went back up.

I'm guessing it's the Ikea topper but I can feel a little difference between where we both sleep and the middle (which is very slightly higher and firmer). I guess it could also be partly due to the quilt, I'm not very concerned about it.  Money is too tight right now for another major investment but I will still go to Literie Laurier to take a look during Xmas vacations. It will also give me a couple of weeks to see if my back keeps getting better.

My wife and I like the feel of the quilt between us and the foam (not as hot for one and easier to change position). We've been sleeping on it for years but we'd like to replace it with something that would last and remain comfortable. We were just in a fabric store yesterday and noticed the huge difference between the price of a small bag of poly filler and cotton (5$ vs 50$), which I guess explain why current mattress makers have given up on natural fibres. Is there anyone who knows of a good quality cotton topper? Or a good quality mattress pad with a thick layer of cotton on top?

Last question: I'm currently bringing my weight down and aiming to be below 200 by next fall and hopefully back to 175 by the winter. Do you think that my current bed could become comfortable by that point and that I could be able to take away one or both toppers before then?

With the thinness of the toppers you have now, it's probable that stomach and back sleeping would give you the best alignment. It certainly isn't suitable yet for side sleeping (as you know :)) The cracking you are talking about could be your back "coming back" into alignment similar to a chiropractor's adjustment who does something similar (cracks you with your leg lifted) in certain circumstances. I have noticed the same thing when my back is "on the edge". It can also happen to me when I shift weight from one leg to another and sort of "relax my hip outward".

I really doubt that the underlying mattress will ever be suitable for side sleeping even at a much lower weight. It wasn't designed that way which is part of the reason it is more suitable as a base than the old one was. Thinner layers on top after you have lost weight ... possibly ... but I doubt it would ever be the bare mattress.

My other half is about 125 and needs more than 2.5" and preferably 3" to relieve pressure on her side. I am tall and 195 and need the same as her. Weight distribution and body profile plays a big role rather than just weight itself.

There are others here who really know their stuff about mattress pads and cotton and have some preferred sources. Hopefully they will post. If I see anything I'll add a link.

Phoenix

I contacted another merchant who has quoted me 2 inches of natural talalay 21 ILD topper for 399$ (before taxes). They told me it’s all I would need to sleep on top of a very hard mattress, even at my weight. They invited me to come give it a try but it’s a 2.5 hours’ drive and it does seems rather expensive.

At this point, I want to wait before making another move, at the very least until my back has recovered a bit more to be able to discern the difference between what’s comfortable and not (I’m still finding the sofa too hard to stay on it more than 10 minutes!) but once I’m better, I’m wondering if another inch of soft talalay could end up being enough.

Too bad these guys can't ship their beds to Canada. This would have seemed like something I could very well like: http://www.sleepez.com/masterpiece.htm

And the guy that told you 2" of 21 would be enough on a very hard mattress was IMO blowing smoke. It wouldn't even be enough for my other half and she weighs 125 (laughing).

Srange ... a few days ago the guy from Laurier told me they had 19 and 40. The price is OK for a king though (assuming he meant the one with a cover).

And I wouldn't get an inch of Talalay.  Thinner layers added together aren't the same as one thicker layer and with not really knowing what the other two pieces really are you'd be a lot safer going with 3" of a known quantity. I suspect you might even need a little more than this in which case the other two you have would come in handy.

Phoenix

It sounds like it been quite a journey for you but at least now I would have some hope that you can make some real improvements.

Phoenix

Got my complete radiology report today and found out I have sacralization of the L5, a transitional vertebra at the lumbo-sacral and degenerative retrolisthesis at L4-L5. I now realize I have no choice but either get a 3 inches topper or get a new bed, once again. Phoenix, do you think that a 3 inches of latex topper would feel straighter and sag less in the middle than my actual setup? Is it worth trying or should I just invest more and get a new bed altogether? I'd hate to spend 400$ on a topper that I can't return and find out that it doesn't work.

Putting all the layers you have on the futon would also give some valuable feedback as this would be ... or should be ... different from your mattress. I am still "very aware" of he affect that the foam on top of your mattress may be having on your results and I do believe that it is a total of 1 3/8 inches which is certainly enough to make a difference in alignment ... and perhaps even support issues ... for someone as sensitive as you are. The futon with no foam may help refine things a bit ... even though the layers you have are really not enough and are somewhat unknown. I would put the layers on the futon in the order of softness (softest on top).

I am really sorry to hear about all your diagnoses ... even though you already knew there were some issues there. I am hopeful that fixing your mattress will make your journey back a little easier.

Before you order, I would check to see if you can get an appropriate topper from somewhere that would allow you to exchange it at a very reasonable cost. While I am guessing that around 24 would be the best only because heavier weights create a perception of softness in slightly firmer materials, the layers we have been using for testing make it really difficult to know for sure.

If it can be ordered with an "exchange" then the expense would be well worth the relief it can provide.

Phoenix

I then moved to the basement; put the covers back on and slept the rest of the night on the futon.  I still had to toss quite a bit but it was definitely less hard than the bed, even if my shoulders still went numb at times. Today, I still have quite a bit of pain but since I didn’t sleep the whole night on the futon, I’ll give it another try tonight. I may try throwing the egg crate on but since it’s just a narrow sofa, it will probably be awkward to use.