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So I've recently made some changes to my sleepez 10000 bed (see below) and developed lower back pain. My back feels very stiff and sore in the morning, and its very hard to stretch forward (ie to touch my toes); stretching backward feels nice. I sleep mostly on my side and back, I would think the pain is from the back sleeping. Is there any way to tell just from the description if the problem is too firm or too soft support? If not, here is more about the changes I made. I was sleeping on a pretty soft bed, waking up generally stiff and sore, but not usually with real "aches" like this. I had something like this (top to bottom);
After extensive work with Phoenix (see this monster thread if interested - http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/overstuffing-mattress-case-foam-layers/16508-0-1.html) - we essentially decided that all those toppers were doing more harm than good, and that I needed both a softer top comfort layer and a firmer bottom support layer. So I bought a 3" firm dunlop and a 1" soft talalay from sleepez. I now sleep on:
So, looking at the changes, I would guess either I made the top too soft (unlikely since I used a variety of toppers before) or the bottom "support" too firm. But that seems to contradict the testing I did with Phoenix. I suppose its possible that I am simply sleeping on my back more or something; I do think I sleep on my back more that the bed feels a bit firmer. I would sure appreciate any help... Steve |
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st3v3k4hn wrote: Hah, I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, its crazy how long it is! I am actually trying to convert to back sleeping, but I don't seem to be comfortable all night that way. Maybe because I am too firm or too soft. On my side it definitely feels like my spine is curved, my hips and abdomen are sunk in and making a U of sorts. I can "fix" this curve in bed by pushing down more on my hips to straighten my spine (if thats a clue). Based on picture (below) I think its most like the too soft example. Although if you notice in the too firm example the abdomen also bends. On my back it certainly feels like my hips are sinking in too. Again from the picture I would guess too soft, but again I can't really tell (as both cause a bend in the low back). Yes, nothing in the past has been perfect, I keep wanting a softer comfort layer and I am never sure if I have the support layer right or not. I frankly think the back ache was from moving layers around, so I don't think I want to try moving anything for a little while. Also, backache fist started when I removed the 1" topper, so while in theory that sounds like a better option I hesitate to return to it. But I think I will as soon as back feels better... Thanks...
It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time. So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion. I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff? And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other.
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sandman wrote: It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time. So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion. I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff? And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other. Yes I am sleeping on S/M/F (talalay/dunlop/dunlop); yes the dunlop is noticably firmer. I often wondered if the transition from soft talalay to medium (but firm-feeling) dunlop might cause problems. But Phoenix often talked about building mattresses that way, he called it "differential" layering, where the support layer is really firm and the comfort layer is really soft and all the comfort comes from the top layer. I think a fair number of commercial mattresses are designed this way. I took pictures of me laying in bed yesterday and decided that I was sinking in too much in any position so I removed the 1" topper before I went to bed last night (well actually I made my wife do it). Removing this 1" soft layer made a big difference - bigger than I would have thought. It feels firmish to me, but it also seems like I am straighter in bed, so I am going to try this for a few nights. If this is about right I might try replacing the 3" soft talalay top layer with a medium talalay layer. I think that would be a bit too firm, but then I can put 1" soft on top of that. That might get me closer to a firm mattress with soft pillowtop feel. It should also make the transition more gradual. |
| You might put your 1" of soft over 2" of medium talalay. Or possibly 2" soft over 1" medium. Hard to say. If you are willing to buy by the inch, you could buy 1" of medium and try that. And try fold in halves if possible to see if adding 1" more of either is better. If your focus is on back sleeping then maybe more of medium than soft. By medium, I might mean around 28 ILD. I think Sleepez medium might be a bit firmer, but might still be okay. |
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Well I am trying to work with what i have, which is 3" layers of firm-dunlop, medium dunlop, medium talalay and soft talalay; and a 1" layer of soft talalay. My strategy now is going to be to optimize for back and get 3 layers that feel just a bit too firm; then add the 1" topper back in and see how much that helps. Right now I am using (top to bottom) S/M/F (Tal/Dunlop/Dunlop) and that feels firm but about right in terms of support to me, andI know adding the 1" topper makes it too soft again. So I want to compare this to something like M/M/F (T/D/D) with the 1" topper. If that doesn't work maybe I will go back to using 2 medium dunlops as my "core." Since these mediums are from SleepEz the really are pretty firm. I didn't actually realize how much firmer SleepEz is; I'd say if you like "soft" that might be a reason to favor FloBeds. (Had I known then what I know now I would probably have gone that route). I think I really need to test these layers again by themselves but I am still too sore to move things around. Definitely getting better though. |
| Okay, sounds like a good strategy. I didn't realize that you had still had the 3" medium talalay. |
| The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try... |
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klas wrote: The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try... I tend to agree. Flobeds is a bit better in that regard. Not sure if sleepez can get pieces at a desired ILD, like 28. There is a big difference between the soft talalay and the dunlop medium. The medium dunlop would probably be like XF talalay on the flobed scale. So, I think that is okay for the bottom 6", but I personally would not like it in the top 4". as a side sleeper. Back sleepers or stomach sleepers might be a different story. It can work having a firm base and some soft on top. I have slept on pretty firm innersprings with a couple inches of memory foam. However, I always felt like I was bottoming out on that. Now I like a bit of transition between firm and soft. |
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I was told they do not carry 28 IDL, so I am looking to find this somewhere else currently. SLAB has it, but it is a bit expensive... This message was modified Feb 9, 2011 by klas
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klas wrote: The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try... Well I don't really think the 10 ILD jump is that bad. Remember, when they (anyone) say their foam is X ild that really means something like X + or - 2 (eg a 28 ILD foam might really be 26 to 30 ILD). There's got to be some variation there. So offering foam at say 24 and 28 ilds might not really be feasible. Or at least misleading. In my case there is a very big difference between the soft and medium, but I think thats because my soft is talalay and my medium is dunlop. If you think the sleepez medium is too firm I doubt you would find the soft too soft. Their soft is ~23 ILD, compared to 19 for FloBeds. If you can swap it, its worth a try... |
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Some tips from my current DIY mattress journey: I purchased a 3" Layer of Latex International Blended Talalay in 28ILD by getting the Rejuvinite topper in "Firm" (Firm as a top layer, I guess) from http://www.latexmattresscompany.com/rejuvenite.html . It comes with its own cover that I did not need, and has no return policy, but it was significantly cheaper that way. Also, if you want a softer layer from SleepEZ, then specify that you want Radium Soft instead of LI Soft. I understand the Radium Soft is 20-22ILD, while the LI is 24ILD. That is 10-20% softer. Gary |