SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Nov 9, 2010 6:51 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
I have been reading with great interest the threads on this forum.  My wife and I are looking for a mattress for one of our sons (we have six kids) who has very bad allergies.  He is currently 8 years old and weighs around 70-75lbs.  We are going to put the mattress on a solid wood base of his bunk bed.  The bottom bunk is full and the top if twin.  We have an older "My First Sealy" twin on the top bunk.  The bottom bunk base is one ich thick planed plywood with a thick maple veneer.

I called SleepEz and spoke with Shawn after reading all of the glowing reviews.  He seems like a nice man.  The think that concerns me is that MANY people speak of being able to swap cores many months after they have been sleeping on them.  I am concerned that latex cores that we would receive could have been in someone elses home and contain allergens, etc.  I don't want to think about bodily fluids.  Either there is a HUGE margin in latex cores so that Shawn can dispose of returned cores or people are getting layers that have been used by someone else.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

As for the mattress itself, do you think a firm, medium core of the 7000 series would be a good choice?  I know he does not weigh much now, but we hope this mattress will last until he is ready to go to college.  His younger brother will eventually be sleeping in this bed as well.  He is currently only 19 months old so he has at least 6-9 months before he will also be sleeping on the latex mattress.

Would the 7000 series also be strong enough to support an adult?  I weigh around 200lbs and when we have bad storms the kids sometimes ask mom or dad to sleep in their room.  I really don't want to bottom out.  We can't afford much more than the 7000 series.  We want something without flame retardants, but we don't have a lot of money either.

We don't have any real latex mattress stores in Madison, WI that sell different layers.  I was able to try one lates mattress at Satara bedding ($3000) and while it seemed ok the price is insane.  The only other one I was able to try was an ecosleep latex bed that was not configurable.  It seemed a little too soft for my wife and I and somewhat bouncy.  Is that the way all Talalay is or was this just a soft bed?

One final question: Has anyone had a mattress that smells really strong?  I read a few reveiews on other sites where some people said the latex smell was overpowering.

Thank you to all in advance,
Matt

Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #5 Nov 10, 2010 2:31 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
sandman wrote:

I don't think most adults would be that comfortable on 5.6" - 6" of latex over a solid wood foundation.  You probably would bottom out.  However, most here have never tried anything like that, so hard to say for sure.  A real box spring, with some actual spring to it would probably help.  For a younger child, it might be okay.

 

I think in europe they may use thinner latex mattresses than in the U.S. (as does Ikea), so they must think it is okay.

If you go that route, you may want to have them put in a slightly larger case (like the 8500), so you can add a little more if necessary.

I think the 100% natural layers are slightly thicker than the blended latex layers (3" vs. 2.8"), so that might help a little.


So would you recommend the 8500 as a minimum?  We want it to last until they are essentially 18.  If the boys are like me they will be around 160 when they are 18.  Would you say firm on bottom-medium-medium would be best or soft on top for the 8500? 

I called Beloit Mattress in Beloit, WI and they sell 100% Natural Latex mattress with organic cottom and 1.8" of wool.  I asked about any other chemicals or materials added for flame retardants.  They said that they use Vissel to meet the flame requirements on the 100% Natural bed.  They said Vissel comes from a plant.  I can't find any information at all on what Vissel is.  Is it safe?  What is it?  Do other manufacturers use it and not tell us?

The nice lady at beloit mattress said the only way to make wool pass the fire tests is to have it on all sides of the mattress including the sides.  She also said you need at least 4" of it in order to pass the flame requirements.  She said this was from their own internal testing.  They do offer a mattress that has 4" of wool all around, but she said it is a premium product and costs upwards of $2000.  She said most of the cost is for the wool and quilting to keep it in place.  She went on to say that this was the only way to pass the blow torch test. 

Blow torch?  Good Lord.  What are people doing in their beds these days? 

She then went on to say latex will ignite very easily, even the natural.  She said that it can turn into a fireball pretty quickly if it is not protected by some type of flame barrier.

SO this begs the question.  Should a bed for a child/teenager, who do stupid things, have wool quilting on all exposed areas of the bed including the sides? 

Is Wool alone meeting the requirements or are the online dealers not selling "beds", but rather latex layers and a bed topper which is not technically a "bed" until it is assembled by the customer?  Are they getting around the requirements by selling this way?  I guess I am ok with this, but I want to know what is the best NATURAL, NON-CHEMICAL or non-chemical sourced fabric to use as a fire barrier for natural latex.

We should NOT have to go through all of this to find out WHAT is in bedding products.

Thanks to everyone here who has more infor that me.
 

Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #6 Nov 10, 2010 3:41 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
Here is the website where the information about untreated wool is contained: http://www.strobel.com/wool_burns.htm

If what they say is true, then either our online companies are treating the wool with something (and not telling us) or we are not buying beds, but rather kits that we assemble in our homes. 

What do people think about this website and it's information.  It sort of meshes with what the lady at Beloit Mattress told me.  Is a doctors note the only way to get a truely chemical free bed?
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #7 Nov 10, 2010 5:35 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
There is a lot of conflicting information about fire retardency methods and it is hard to know what to believe. I read the same article as you mentioned and yet there are many other "equally credible sounding" articles that will say that 1.8 oz of compressed wool/sq yd will meet the requirements. It is true that the mattress/foundation has to meet the open flame test which replaced the smouldering cigarette test and that the open flame is simultaneously applied to both the top and side of the mattress using a specified "torch" (see page 4 here http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr06/mattsets.pdf).

Each mattress/foundation (if it is designed to be used with a specific one) prototype also has to be tested and any mattress cover cannot be certified unless it is part of a specific mattress design which has passed.

The trickiest part is that what is called "inherent" materials (materials or fibers that have something added before manufacture as opposed to something added after it is made) are difficult to identify. There is no requirement to label any chemicals used as the regulatory agencies believe this would serve no "useful purpose" (their own words). I have my doubts if most wool would pass this test without an inherent additive and even if it did it would certainly need to be on the sides as well as on the top (the flame is applied to the side as well). There are several outlets which advertise RV mattresses to get around this but that too has certain qualifications attached and this (selling an RV mattress with regular dimensions) is usually an indication of more "shady" outlets. A mattress that is sold for home use ... even a do it yourself ... must meet the requirements for each specific construction.

Visil is a rayon (wood fiber) material with a silica (quartz "sand") additive and barriers like this are sold by several companies. Milliken is an example. As a side note ... the bamboo fabrics that are sold as "natural" are really closer to a rayon material as they use "dissolved" bamboo fibers and then are blended with other fibers. They are not environmentally friendly at all ... even though they are quite nice.

My personal opinion is that a good visil barrier is acceptable as I personally have some doubts that wool without any additives would pass and that the additives would be "hidden" whereas the visil is not and I believe that the additives which would be used in wool are more harmful (boron for example) than the visil material. This is compounded by the fact that it is difficult to know if some manufacturers have actually submitted their mattress prototypes for testing. It is pretty much buyer beware here.

Having said all that ... I believe that in the end (although this is disputed by the "official agencies") that the materials used and the confusion surrounding compliance issues themselves cause more harm, health issues, and even fatalaties over the long term than the few hundred lives that are meant to be saved by the standard (I believe it is designed to save less than 300 lives and less than 2000 injuries per year but I didn't look up the specific numbers). They also certainly add to the expense of a mattress. The standard can be "avoided" with a doctor's prescription but this in many cases would require a "custom built" mattress. Some outlets sell mattresses that can only be purchased with a prescription.

Another example of some official agency trying to "save us from ourselves" using regulations that do more harm than the problem they were designed to fix.

Phoenix

This message was modified Nov 10, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #8 Nov 10, 2010 5:42 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
moon1234 wrote:

 


So would you recommend the 8500 as a minimum?  We want it to last until they are essentially 18.  If the boys are like me they will be around 160 when they are 18.  Would you say firm on bottom-medium-medium would be best or soft on top for the 8500? 

I called Beloit Mattress in Beloit, WI and they sell 100% Natural Latex mattress with organic cottom and 1.8" of wool.  I asked about any other chemicals or materials added for flame retardants.  They said that they use Vissel to meet the flame requirements on the 100% Natural bed.  They said Vissel comes from a plant.  I can't find any information at all on what Vissel is.  Is it safe?  What is it?  Do other manufacturers use it and not tell us?

The nice lady at beloit mattress said the only way to make wool pass the fire tests is to have it on all sides of the mattress including the sides.  She also said you need at least 4" of it in order to pass the flame requirements.  She said this was from their own internal testing.  They do offer a mattress that has 4" of wool all around, but she said it is a premium product and costs upwards of $2000.  She said most of the cost is for the wool and quilting to keep it in place.  She went on to say that this was the only way to pass the blow torch test. 

Blow torch?  Good Lord.  What are people doing in their beds these days? 

She then went on to say latex will ignite very easily, even the natural.  She said that it can turn into a fireball pretty quickly if it is not protected by some type of flame barrier.

SO this begs the question.  Should a bed for a child/teenager, who do stupid things, have wool quilting on all exposed areas of the bed including the sides? 

Is Wool alone meeting the requirements or are the online dealers not selling "beds", but rather latex layers and a bed topper which is not technically a "bed" until it is assembled by the customer?  Are they getting around the requirements by selling this way?  I guess I am ok with this, but I want to know what is the best NATURAL, NON-CHEMICAL or non-chemical sourced fabric to use as a fire barrier for natural latex.

We should NOT have to go through all of this to find out WHAT is in bedding products.

Thanks to everyone here who has more infor that me.
 


I think for better long term use, I would go with the 8500 or higher.   Remember, they still may use it after age 18. 

They also have these discount mattresses. The bottom 6" are dunlop, which is firmer for the same ILD.  Also, the cover is just cotton (not really sure if it is a blend - you would have to ask about that) - no wool.  For that one (or even the 8500), you might want to add a washable wool filled mattress pad.

For the 8500, and a light person, I would probably go with the S/M/F that they usually recommend.  You should ask Shawn though.   In the dunlop discount one, I don't think I would even get firm at all, maybe S/M/M.

I would note that some people are allergic to latex.  I am not sure if that will be an issue for you.

 

Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #9 Nov 10, 2010 5:43 PM
Joined: Jun 12, 2010
Points: 51
I agree with Phoenix's post. In my research on this, I have come to the conclusion that probably the only way to get a chem free-fire retardant free bed is with a doctor's prescription. Otherwise, manufacturers must meet the fire laws or face hefty fines.  If you read the law, the only exception is with a doctor's prescription. It is very frustrating in the U.S. to find a non-toxic bed.  One could purchase latex layers and put them together oneself and make a cover oneself.

The strobel link is very informative. The fire laws were tightened in the last few years even though they were already more than sufficient. Mattresses now have to withstand a wide blowtorch for more than a minute. Imagine how much chemical or other fire retardant it takes to keep a fire from starting. Not stuff I want in my mattress. Unfortunately, companies are protected by "trade secrets" and do not have to disclose what chemicals are in your mattress. The book "Toxic Bedrooms" is an eye opener.

Some companies admit to reusing the swapped layers, some don't. I guess I would ask them.

Latex has a strong odor of rubber, because it is rubber. Genetically it seems, some folks can smell it and some can't. It bothers some people and not others. For talalay, they also put some synthetic vanilla in the vats to try to cover up the smell.

This message was modified Nov 10, 2010 by jasmine
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #10 Nov 11, 2010 2:03 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
Well I contacted SleepEZ and spoke with Shawn, Jeremy and Shawn's father who started the business.  Shawn's father was very knowledgeable (I mean he really knows his stuff).  He said that the flame test is looking more for the amount of heat supression vs not burning/no flames.  He said the wool chars when it burns, and it does burn, but the char creates a very strong insulation later that helps to deflect heat even better.  He continued on stating that when a flame is applied to wool from the top the wool does not burn like wood or cotton, rather it smoulders and creates a char layer that acts as the true heat insulator during a real fire.

Since I did not know if this was true or not I did some research and found this to be accurate.  While the strobel test shows wool burning, it was an unfair test as the wool was lit from the bottom and the flame burt UP the string.  The better, and more accurate from a mattress point of use, would have been to light the top part of the wool and see if it would burn down.  My guess would be that it would not, or if it did it would be slow and a char layer would form and put out any ongoing flame.  If you think about it any flame a mattress would be exposed to, either from the side or top of the mattress, would be burning the top of the wool layer.  This would then form a char layer which would enhance the insulating properties.

Here is my original e-mail and the reply I received from Jeremy:

 



From: Jeremy Mathis [jeremym@sleepez.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:41 AM
To: Matthew Becker
Subject: RE: Question about natural latex mattress


Matthew 

We do not use any flame retardants whatsoever in any of our latex mattress models.  Our mattress covers have eco wool, which serves as a natural fire retardant.  The wool is not treated with any spray or any other substances. 

Please let me know if you have any other questions.  You have a wonderful day!

Jeremy
SleepEZ
480-966-9282

From:Matthew Becker
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:36 AM
To: jeremyM@sleepez.com
Subject: Question about natural latex mattress

Hello Jeremy,

I spoke with Shawn yesterday about your natural mattress line.  I am very interested in purchasing a full size latex mattress from your company.  I just have one question that I am still a little unclear about and I hope that you can answer it for me.

We are purchasing this bed for my son who has allergies.  We want a bed that is made of 100% natural/organic components.  We also want a bed that does not have ANY added flame retardants.  Do your latex beds (latex layers or cover) have any type of added flame retardants?  If so, do you know which flame retardants and could you give me a list and where they are used?  We are under the impression that wool serves as the flame retardant material/barrier and that nothing else has been added to the bed nor has the wool (or any part of the cover) been processed or sprayed with any other substance to enhance the flame retardant properties.

If you could answer this for me I would really appreciate it!

Thank you,
Matthew Becker

I also e-mailed Flobeds to see what their response was.  They replied with a link to video of their burn test, the corresponding report, etc.  I really wish more companies would provide this information.  One thing I did notice was that in the report it lists the company that submitted the mattress for testing was Berkeley Ergonomics.  I e-mailed them back and asked them about this.  They said that they purchase their bed covers from them.  They also stated they submitted their most flammable bed to them for testing.  The video evidence really sells this for me.  Here is the e-mail string from FloBeds:

From: FloBeds [info@flobeds.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:52 PM
To: Matthew Becker
Subject: RE: Question about Latex mattresses

Mathew,
         Berkeley Ergonomics is a company in California we contract out to do the sewing in our covers, ie quilting the organic wool into the organic cotton ticking. We offer visco as an option (which we don't recommend). Visco is much more flammable than latex, so we had them test our most flammable mattress, (latex topped w/ visco).
 
At 10:14 AM 11/11/2010, you wrote:
Thank you very much for this information.  I do have a question though.
The company in the report is listed as Berkeley Ergonomics.  Do you
resell their products or has the company changed names?  They seem to
be located in Canada, but I don't see any retail store so they seem to
be a manufacturer that you buy from?  Is that correct?
I also noticed in the report that the bed tested contained Visco foam. 
Does it matter with Latex beds which type of materials are in the core
or is the test solely for the outer cover?  If the test is solely for
the outer cover, then is that the item sourced from Berkeley
Ergonomics?
Thank you again,
Matthew Becker

 
-----Original Message-----
From: FloBeds
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:40 AM
To: Matthew Becker
Subject: Re: Question about Latex mattresses
Matthew,
          Organic wool is our sole flame barrier.
http://www.flobeds.com/burntest.html
The wool is certified organic and has not been treated with any
chemicals whatsoever, if you purchase one of our Green mattresses you
will have a chemical free sleeping environment.
 
At 11:22 PM 11/10/2010, you wrote:
 Hello,
 
 My wife and I are looking for a full size, 100% natural latex
 mattress for our son who has allergies.  I would like to know if your
 latex beds and associated covers are 100% free of all flame
 retardants both synthetic and natural (other than organic wool)? 
 Examples of flame retardants would be Silica, Boron, Boric Acid,
 PBDEs, Formaldehyde, etc.
 
 We are under the impression that wool acts as the natural flame
 barrier.  We want to be 100% sure that the wool has NOT been been
 processed or sprayed in any way with anything to enhance its natural
 flame retardant properties or that any other material has been added
 to the bed before placing an order.
 
 I look forward to your prompt reply,
 
 Matthew Becker
 
In all I am impressed with both answers.  I really wish SleepEZ had their flame tests online as well.  Unless these companies are outright lying, and I don't believe they are, wool truely is a natural flame barrier! 

What am I going to buy?  I am pretty sure we are going with the 7000 organic/natural series from SleepEZ.  I will discuss with my wife.  The acutal test results from FloBeds and the accompanying video is a power sway for me though.  Proof behind the pudding!
This message was modified Nov 11, 2010 by moon1234
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #11 Nov 11, 2010 2:11 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
Also as a followup to my original question of if the swapped layers are used.  I called Shawn and he said that ALL layers sent out are new.  He said that he actually does not get many swaps back.  When they do come back he said that he offers the swapped layers locally (disclosed as swaps to the purchaser) at a discount.  He said he has no problem selling them.
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #12 Nov 11, 2010 4:35 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
The 1633 standard is set up in a way that assumes that the mattress has ticking, bedclothes and sheets etc over the fire retardent barrier that will contribute to the fire and keep on burning after the flame is removed. It then tests for total heat release in the first 10 minutes (15 MJ) and peak heat release over 30 minutes (200 KW). The idea is to prevent "flashover" where the temperature gets so high that everything nearby starts to burn without direct contact with the flame and to give the occupant time to escape. Bear in mind that this is heat release and not "open flame" although they are connected. Smouldering may not go over the 10 minute test but it could go over the 30 minute test (which is why they have it). Because there is heat applied to the side for 50 seconds (70 on top), there would be some "up" burning".

I personally would tend to believe what you have been told as my doubts lie not in the facts as known by the mattress manufacturer ... there is no doubt in my mind that the wool they and many others use passes the test... but in the original processing of the wool and ticking. Different qualities and processing methods of wool have different flammability qualities. At the very least ... the wool needs to be thicker and then compressed (thus the 4" you were told earlier which would then be compressed to a thinner layer). There are some very stringent organic manufacturers out there who do use thicker "organic"  wool that is compressed and use it on the sides as well and they pass the test. It is not so much the actual thickness as the oz/sq ft and the type and quality of wool that makes the real difference. This is the main reason that I didn't use wool in my quilting since I believed that not only would it need to be compressed and not be as "fluffy" (confirmed by my experience where the same mattress had a compressed wool fire barrier option and that bed was firmer) but that it would also compress over time and harden up my latex. Of course my mattress doesn't have a removeable cover so I couldn't take it off and fluff it up as you can with the removeable covers.

In the end, it didn't really matter so much to me since the old standard was more than sufficient in my eyes and if I had my choice I would rather have a mattress that didn't comply with any standard if compliance meant doing anything that would in any way "denature" or "alter" the materials used. I am also not as sensitive as many others are and a completely organic mattress is not as high on my list of priorities as it is for some others. I am much more "sensitive" to dumb regulations (laughing). I really don't like what the regulations have forced the industry into doing and the distortions of information that have come about as a result.

Interesting about Berkeley Ergonomics. They make a really nice microcoil mattress and in the early part of my search I was seriously looking at a mattress of this type since another one I tried was really comfortable. I wonder why they use them for their testing since they don't commercially sell the same mattress as flobeds and the mattress has to be tested as a complete unit (the cover cannot be tested by itself and used on "multiple mattresses"). There are some minor exceptions with this if the "other" mattress is not substantially different from the prototype that was tested.

The source of all this information is the regulation itself rather than anything I have been told.

Phoenix

This message was modified Nov 11, 2010 by Phoenix
Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #13 Nov 11, 2010 4:53 PM
Joined: Oct 3, 2010
Points: 809
I would tend to go with something a little thicker than 6" as well.

Perhaps even more important ... given that you have some good options for testing near you ... I would go (with your son) and lay on some mattresses with different ILD's and layering before I bought something online as you will have a much much better idea of what is suitable for you. This is probably more important than anything else in terms of getting it "right" ... especially if you are thinking of a thinner mattress with less "changeability" in the layering.

Phoenix

Re: SleepEZ - Are swapped layers used?
Reply #14 Nov 11, 2010 5:20 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 12
Phoenix wrote:

Interesting about Berkeley Ergonomics. They make a really nice microcoil mattress and in the early part of my search I was seriously looking at a mattress of this type since another one I tried was really comfortable. I wonder why they use them for their testing since they don't commercially sell the same mattress as flobeds and the mattress has to be tested as a complete unit (the cover cannot be tested by itself and used on "multiple mattresses"). There are some minor exceptions with this if the "other" mattress is not substantially different from the prototype that was tested.

The source of all this information is the regulation itself rather than anything I have been told.

Phoenix


I was told that they buy the cover from Berkeley Ergonomics and use it on their mattresses.  I wonder if they are simply transferring the testing done on that cover to their own bed?  It would be expensive for a "kitter" who buys latex layers and a cover from someone else and just sells them together as a bed to do any type of extensive testing.  I wonder if they can just list "Latex Foam/Viscose" as the material and essentially put any diffent amounts in and get away with a single test?  The cover would be the same material in all tests.  The only difference would be the size of the cover.  The internal material would be essentially the same.

Am I off in my thinking here?
 

Recent Posts