Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Apr 2, 2012 6:51 PM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 53
Last fall (I think it was last fall) -- we got inspired by the folks here and cut open our 7 yr old Stearns and Foster E King mattress (posted pics here too). We pulled out all the crappy foam and put in 2" of 32 and 1" of 20 ILD latex from Foam by Mail. We have tried a Cuddlebed topper from Costco and I liked it at first -- but now -- meh-- so we took it off. We had a piece of 2" Overstock memory foam that we took out -- I just felt it was beginning to 'lose its memory'. Then we tried a different 2" MF topper from Costco -- I REALLY didn't like that -- my hips hurt! We tried both of the MF on top and under the FBM 20. So now we are sleeping on just the latex. I've read here that people think FBM's 20 is really something between a 24-28. Whatever it is, it is really just too hard -- though it feels soft when I just push down with my fingers -- but when I lay down -- it is hard. For me it isn't horrible -- it is better than the floor or a board -- but it's just not gonna work long term. My husband is suffering a lot more than I am. So -- where do we go from here?

Our stats -- I am 5'2" and 170ish (sigh) side and back sleeper (more back recently cause of how firm the bed is). Jim is 6'4" and 210 -- mostly side sleeper. 

He's getting tempted to just start from scratch which would be a cheap firm Sealy king from Costco (what we can afford at the moment) at around $600.

Other options are 1" of softer talatech latex from SLAB which is $274 + tax -- I'm leaning toward 19 ILD (but don't know btween the 19 and 24).

There's this from Arizona Mattress 2" 22ILD -- but I don't know where it's from and don't want to get another too firm piece. But the price is good -- $239.

Also this from Sleep EZ -- 1.5" of blended talalay $220 + $50 for shipping -- it says it's 22-24 ILD -- again wondering if it will it be soft enough? 

Finally I've considered 1" of the 5.3 lb density MF from foam order (I think it was shovel99's rec?) for $122 + shipping.

 

I'd would LOVE to hear any opinions of anyone here. Thanks!

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #7 Apr 4, 2012 5:23 PM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
stacytr wrote:

Thanks for chiming in Sandman -- where would you recommend I get my next inch or so of latex? Would you go with SLAB or someplace else? Any sources I'm missing? Where did you get your 5 lb MF? Sorry for all the questions!  You know we were initially trying to copy you with our set up smiley (we used to have the 2" of MF and I was hoping ours would work as well) -- it was good for a little bit. I think (hope) we just need a little more to get it right. 

 

We put the cuddlebed back on last night -- my shoulder is better -- but my hips hurt a bit. So my thinking is we need more supportive softness. 

More supportive softness might come from 19ILD talalay and/or good memory foam.  The unusual thing is that the 2" memory foam felt hard on your hips.   That would be unusual for me, so perhaps your sensitivies are different.  Although, maybe it just the brand of memory foam.

The 5lb memory foam is Sensus, which I bought at Overstock.  Last time I looked they no longer sell it (at least 1").   Sleeplikeabear is one of the few (or only?) places that has 1" 19ILD Latex International talalay.   The 5.3lb memory foam I got at foamorder.  I actually prefer that to the Sensus, but it did have a pretty strong odor when new.

I prefer at least 1" of memory foam.  I have trouble being as comfortable on all latex foam.  Although I generally find 2" of memory foam right on top as too soft, unless the unless it is on top of the old style traditional innerspring.

Anyway, I only arrived at my current destination by plenty of experimentation.  Not always fun and cheap, but I doubt I current have found something off the shelf that I like as much.   Even how you layer the same pieces of foam will make a difference. 

My coils and support needs are probably different than you, so hard to make any definitive recommendations.

 



 

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #8 Apr 4, 2012 6:09 PM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
stacytr wrote:

... (we used to have the 2" of MF and I was hoping ours would work as well) -- it was good for a little bit. I think (hope) we just need a little more to get it right. 

We put the cuddlebed back on last night -- my shoulder is better -- but my hips hurt a bit. So my thinking is we need more supportive softness. 

So for now, your setup is springs, then 32 ILD latex, then 20 ILD latex (from FBM), and then the Cuddlebed? (You took the memory foam off?)

You might need more medium-soft cushion there -- something as a transition between the Cuddlebed and the FBM latex. (I have one inch of the FBM 20 ILD, and it is quite dense and more like 28-30 ILD. I bought it for that reason, actually, so I could either use it over my springs after the [failed] mattress surgery or cut it up for zoning.)

I took a risk by buying the 22 ILD topper from Arizona Premium Mattress -- in theory, not a smart move because it's not returnable, and I had plenty of anxiety about it; but it turned out to be great -- a nice combo of softness & support for me. That said, I'd recommend that you stick with a vendor that allows topper returns, which would be SLAB or SleepEZ.

Maybe 1.5" of the SleepEZ topper? (Cheaper than a 2" piece from them or from SLAB, and a leeeetle bit more substance than a 1" piece.) If you go with SLAB, I think I'd opt for the 24 ILD; I'm afraid you'd bottom out on the 19 ILD. Just a guess.

I've never slept on memory foam, so I don't have any experience with that to offer.

Sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with finding/building a comfortable mattress. It is ridiculously hard for some of us.

This message was modified Apr 4, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #9 Apr 5, 2012 12:22 AM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 53
sandman wrote:

More supportive softness might come from 19ILD talalay and/or good memory foam.  The unusual thing is that the 2" memory foam felt hard on your hips.   That would be unusual for me, so perhaps your sensitivies are different.  Although, maybe it just the brand of memory foam.

The 5lb memory foam is Sensus, which I bought at Overstock.  Last time I looked they no longer sell it (at least 1").   Sleeplikeabear is one of the few (or only?) places that has 1" 19ILD Latex International talalay.   The 5.3lb memory foam I got at foamorder.  I actually prefer that to the Sensus, but it did have a pretty strong odor when new.

I prefer at least 1" of memory foam.  I have trouble being as comfortable on all latex foam.  Although I generally find 2" of memory foam right on top as too soft, unless the unless it is on top of the old style traditional innerspring.

Anyway, I only arrived at my current destination by plenty of experimentation.  Not always fun and cheap, but I doubt I current have found something off the shelf that I like as much.   Even how you layer the same pieces of foam will make a difference. 

My coils and support needs are probably different than you, so hard to make any definitive recommendations.


The 2" of MF from Costco I think is just really bad quality -- I think my hips hurt cause I wasn't aligned well -- my guess anyway. With the too firm latex, my shoulders and midback are more sore -- but I feel like I can live with it more -- it's like I'm tight and a bit achy, but not in pain -- if that makes sense. But I can't live with it long term -- and my husband is really not a fan of our current set up.

I like -- or used to like a more firm bed - now I'd say I still want firm -- but I really need some cushiness too -- stupid aging.

And I don't want to experiment -- I just want it to be right without too much money spent! cheeky Is that too much to ask?!  

I'm still waffling between 19 and 24 ILD and 1-2" for this layer. But I'm ready to bite the bullet and make this purchase -- just really really hoping to get closer to what we need.

Sandman, one other question -- I can't remember -- do you have a special cover -- wool or other that you like?

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #10 Apr 5, 2012 1:21 AM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 53
Catherine wrote:

 

So for now, your setup is springs, then 32 ILD latex, then 20 ILD latex (from FBM), and then the Cuddlebed? (You took the memory foam off?)

You might need more medium-soft cushion there -- something as a transition between the Cuddlebed and the FBM latex. (I have one inch of the FBM 20 ILD, and it is quite dense and more like 28-30 ILD. I bought it for that reason, actually, so I could either use it over my springs after the [failed] mattress surgery or cut it up for zoning.)

I took a risk by buying the 22 ILD topper from Arizona Premium Mattress -- in theory, not a smart move because it's not returnable, and I had plenty of anxiety about it; but it turned out to be great -- a nice combo of softness & support for me. That said, I'd recommend that you stick with a vendor that allows topper returns, which would be SLAB or SleepEZ.

Maybe 1.5" of the SleepEZ topper? (Cheaper than a 2" piece from them or from SLAB, and a leeeetle bit more substance than a 1" piece.) If you go with SLAB, I think I'd opt for the 24 ILD; I'm afraid you'd bottom out on the 19 ILD. Just a guess.

I've never slept on memory foam, so I don't have any experience with that to offer.

Sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with finding/building a comfortable mattress. It is ridiculously hard for some of us.

Yep, S&F springs -- pretty decently firm -- at least I think they are. There's a thin dacron like layer over the springs and then something like a pressed felt layer. Then 2" FBM 32 ILD latex, and 1" FBM ILD 20 (supposedly!). And now the cuddlebed topper back on -- though I just can't make up my mind on it. I'm definitely not loving it. 

I'm scared to order the Arizona one and then finding out it's too thick -- of course I worry about the opposite too -- deciding I need more cushion. I did really like the Tradere 1 from Custom Comfort when my husband and I laid on it in the store. That has 1" of LI 19 in the topper. Although if you scroll over "topper core" on the left and hit enter, there's a little pull down menu and the pic is of PU foam rather than latex! surprise It's also a quilted topper so I know it won't feel quite the same as me just laying it on our raw latex layers. Incidentally I called and asked, and they would sell me just the quilted 1" topper and I could pick it up in their Pasadena store (10 minutes away) for.... drumroll ...

$895!!!!!! Um... NO -- I don't think so!! 

So how the heck do I decide between 19 and 24? And 1 or 2"?? I wish that I knew where the SleepEZ one came from -- they say they use a few different suppliers. Is there that much of a difference in softness between 24 ILD and the supposed 20 FBM? I thought about ordering samples -- but I just wasn't sure what feeling them would tell me vs laying on them -- my 20 feels soft enough when I just press it with my fingers. And as far as returns -- I'm not sure we'd return it unless the latex was terrible -- we would just lose so much with shipping and restocking fees (one of the vendors makes you pay for shipping both ways if you return) -- plus 20-25% restocking fees. 

And yeah I know you of all people really know how hard it is -- I think you and ... is it jimsocal? have had a million possible variations of latex and other things. It freaks me out a bit sometimes -- cause we just don't have the money to keep trying lots of different things -- we need to make this work if we buy more latex - but I've got two little kids (I can't really call my oldest little anymore -- he turns 10 next month!) and I am GRUMPY if I don't get some good sleep! 

 

I was happy for you when I read that at least your new bed is good enough that you aren't reading about mattress stuff all the time -- that sounds like a big improvement! :) I really need to get to thinking about organizing and decluttering too!

Thanks for adding your opinion too :)

ETA: I was looking and Arizona Premium Mattress has their 2" topper in a 22 ILD -- but LI doesn't have a 22 ILD -- again makes me worry that I'll get something I'm not expecting with the firmness. I know you are really happy with yours though. Sigh -- I might be overthinking this...

This message was modified Apr 5, 2012 by stacytr
Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #11 Apr 5, 2012 8:20 AM
Joined: Aug 1, 2009
Points: 175
stacytr wrote:

So how the heck do I decide between 19 and 24? And 1 or 2"??

Well, if you go with SLAB, and you can swing the money, you could try 1 inch of each. Or, if you're most worried about the latex being too firm (and about money), start with 1 inch of 19 ILD. Then you can see what that feels like, and fold it over and see what 2" feels like. Two 1" pieces won't feel quite the same as one 2" piece, but it'll be close.
 

I wish that I knew where the SleepEZ one came from -- they say they use a few different suppliers.

SleepEZ has a great reputation on this board, so I don't think you'll need to worry about the quality of their latex, whichever supplier they use.
 

Is there that much of a difference in softness between 24 ILD [from LI] and the supposed 20 from FBM?

Yeah, I think there is -- at least with the stuff I have. The 20 ILD I have from FBM makes a good support layer; not as useful as a comfort layer.

 

And yeah I know you of all people really know how hard it is -- I think you and ... is it jimsocal? have had a million possible variations of latex and other things.

I've experimented a fair amount, but nowhere near as much as Jimsocal or Paul ("shovel99" here) have. (Lucky for me.) And I definitely understand the worry about money.

 

ETA: I was looking and Arizona Premium Mattress has their 2" topper in a 22 ILD -- but LI doesn't have a 22 ILD -- again makes me worry that I'll get something I'm not expecting with the firmness. I know you are really happy with yours though. Sigh -- I might be overthinking this...

It is easy to overthink all this stuff when we can't just go into a nearby store and lie on all these different types of foam to see what they feel like. Samples that are a few square inches don't help much.

As far as the 22 ILD topper from Arizona: Natural latex will generally have a range of ILDs; it's a little harder to pin down than the Talatech blended stuff.  My N3 from LI is listed as 25-29 ILD (so I think of it as 27).  The topper from SleepEZ is listed as 22-24 ILD.  My anxiety-laden gamble worked out OK for me, but I was worried about the Arizona 22 ILD stuff being too soft -- and you're worried about it being too firm.

If you're most worried about another layer of latex being too firm and/or too thick, you might be better off starting with one inch of 19 ILD. Just don't go any softer than that.

Or, if you have a wholesale foam distributor in your town, go there first and see if they have some soft poly foam. It might work better as a comfort layer. The foam wholesaler in my city has full-length samples of various poly foams, and I spent an hour or two there, a while back, lying on them. I wound up trying the 22 ILD latex instead, but this wholesaler had some pretty comfy poly foams. Or try some soft poly foam from FBM -- it'll be much, much cheaper than latex.

 

This message was modified Apr 5, 2012 by Catherine
Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #12 Apr 5, 2012 9:00 AM
Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Points: 84
Your 32 ILD on top of S&F coils is an over kill.

1) Remove the 32 ILD to evaluate how much support you need.

2)Add your memory foam Topper to asses the amount of comfort layers needed.

keep us updated.

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #13 Apr 5, 2012 11:26 AM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
stacytr wrote:

 


The 2" of MF from Costco I think is just really bad quality -- I think my hips hurt cause I wasn't aligned well -- my guess anyway. With the too firm latex, my shoulders and midback are more sore -- but I feel like I can live with it more -- it's like I'm tight and a bit achy, but not in pain -- if that makes sense. But I can't live with it long term -- and my husband is really not a fan of our current set up.

I like -- or used to like a more firm bed - now I'd say I still want firm -- but I really need some cushiness too -- stupid aging.

And I don't want to experiment -- I just want it to be right without too much money spent! cheeky Is that too much to ask?!  

I'm still waffling between 19 and 24 ILD and 1-2" for this layer. But I'm ready to bite the bullet and make this purchase -- just really really hoping to get closer to what we need.

Sandman, one other question -- I can't remember -- do you have a special cover -- wool or other that you like?

I have a washable wool filled Natura mattress pad right on top of the the foam.   Nothing else except a sheet over that.

You might get lucky and get it right the first time.  Depends on how picky you are.

I have a slight preference for the 100% natural talalay.  Seems a bit more substantial then the blended.  The softest one at SLAB says 20-24.9, so it might be more like 22.5 on average.   Probably the same thing Catherine got. 

I decided to go with 1" increments on top so I could fine tune.   I have 1" of the 5.3 (I measured at 5.9!) MF on top over 1" of 24 (might be somewhere in 20-25 range?) 100% natural talalay over 1" 19 blended talalay.  It is possibly that would be just fine with 2" of the 20-25, but never tried it that way.

SLAB does offer returns, but you will be out shipping.  You might want to try 1" and you can then also fold in half to get a sense of what 1 more inch would be like.

It's hard!   Unfortunetly it is not a product that can just be tried and returned easily. 

 

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #14 Apr 6, 2012 4:32 AM
Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Points: 53
I lost a whole post! And it has been a crappy long day. I'll try and recreate my post.

 

I spoke with someone at SleepEZ today. I don't remember his name and he seemed very nice, but when I talked about the recommendations here to start small and build from there and asked him for advice, he basically said that in his experience trying to piece together beds with 1 and 2 inch pieces was not a good idea and the people who tried that were on a path to dissatisfaction with the end result. He really thought people needed 2" as a bare minimum and that 3" on top was better. Oh and the 1 and 1.5 inch toppers that they have on their website -- apparently they are getting a new website at the end of the month and aren't bothering to update/remove the sold out and discontinued items. I also had an email response from someone at Arizona Premium Mattress Co (latexmattresscompany.com). I was asking whether they had 1" toppers and he said that 2 inches was the bare minimum. In his last email I felt he was a little condescending -- but that could have just been me reading into his words. 

I just feel kind of discouraged. I cannot afford a 3" $500+ topper (almost $700 at SLAB) to fix my bed! I'm not going to go that route. And I'm here, so ultimately I think you guys who have been experimenting with layers and so kindly sharing your experiences to help the rest of us are maybe  a little more credible than the person trying to sell me a 3" expensive topper. I mentioned this board with both places and I was just a little surprised I guess that the experiences here seemed to be discounted. And I confess it makes me second myself a little bit -- wondering whether I should get the Ariaona mattress co 2" topper (the only one I can afford that's 2") -- or just go for the 1" at SLAB. Sigh.

Catherine, I realized there are 2 differnt websites for Arizona mattress. These are both the same right? mattresses.net and latexmattresscompany.com The logo looks the same -- I'm just not sure why they have the 2 different addresses with slightly different sites. 

This message was modified Apr 6, 2012 by stacytr
Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #15 Apr 6, 2012 9:33 AM
Joined: Mar 15, 2012
Points: 182
The advice to not piece together the topper makes sense, but the approach is born out of concern over not being sure what to get and wanting to minimize the expense.  Without much experience (sorry!), I'm thinking a 1" topper is to fix the quilted surface, 2" is quilting plus some cushion, and 3" is more wholesale, you better know what you are trying to achieve or hide.  The mattress cover tends to firm up the contents, so the topper tends to be for surface cushion (to fix dead mattress surfaces more or less).  However, with mattress surgery where the cover is now gone, the topper can interact more with the layers below, so 3" could have more core purpose here.

With surgery on existing innersprings, I think 3" core purpose on the springs and 2" topper over that for cushion comfort... say 32 and 24 Talatech, for example.

The multiple websites for the same vendor is unprofessional.  They should simply toggle from old to new when its ready.

Here's a pretty good deal on a king 3" LI Talatech in a sensible topper cover... 19 or 28 ILD.  The 19 would be deep soft; the 28 would be 'medium'... could work on top/could work on springs... hard to know from here.  The choice of ILDs suggests LI is targeting the topper market with this one, not the build to taste market.  I would prefer an option for 2" 24 ILD.  Still... it's probably a quality LI topper, 3" Talatech and stretchy cover.

GK

Re: Frustrated with DIY surgery bed and need topper help!
Reply #16 Apr 6, 2012 11:33 AM
Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Points: 966
stacytr wrote:

I lost a whole post! And it has been a crappy long day. I'll try and recreate my post.

 

 

I spoke with someone at SleepEZ today. I don't remember his name and he seemed very nice, but when I talked about the recommendations here to start small and build from there and asked him for advice, he basically said that in his experience trying to piece together beds with 1 and 2 inch pieces was not a good idea and the people who tried that were on a path to dissatisfaction with the end result. He really thought people needed 2" as a bare minimum and that 3" on top was better. Oh and the 1 and 1.5 inch toppers that they have on their website -- apparently they are getting a new website at the end of the month and aren't bothering to update/remove the sold out and discontinued items. I also had an email response from someone at Arizona Premium Mattress Co (latexmattresscompany.com). I was asking whether they had 1" toppers and he said that 2 inches was the bare minimum. In his last email I felt he was a little condescending -- but that could have just been me reading into his words. 

I just feel kind of discouraged. I cannot afford a 3" $500+ topper (almost $700 at SLAB) to fix my bed! I'm not going to go that route. And I'm here, so ultimately I think you guys who have been experimenting with layers and so kindly sharing your experiences to help the rest of us are maybe  a little more credible than the person trying to sell me a 3" expensive topper. I mentioned this board with both places and I was just a little surprised I guess that the experiences here seemed to be discounted. And I confess it makes me second myself a little bit -- wondering whether I should get the Ariaona mattress co 2" topper (the only one I can afford that's 2") -- or just go for the 1" at SLAB. Sigh.

Catherine, I realized there are 2 differnt websites for Arizona mattress. These are both the same right? mattresses.net and latexmattresscompany.com The logo looks the same -- I'm just not sure why they have the 2 different addresses with slightly different sites. 

My guess is that you need at least 2" above the 32.   I am not sure if you still plan to use the FBM 20, but you will be able to try it with and without.   So, 2" of the 22 from Arizona might work out for you.  Is it 100% natural talalay from Latex International?   My situation would probably be just fine with 2" of the 22 (instead of 1" 24 and 1" 19) and 1" of memory foam on top of that.

Certainly better pricing than SLAB.   My guess is that it won't be too soft.   You would then have the option of adding 1" above it if it is close to being right, but a little too firm.   I have found that you can definitely go too thick on memory foam.   I had a couple of 2.5" pieces of memory that both ended up being too soft to use.   With latex, an extra inch is less likely to cause a problem.

A previous poster (Mark) had a latex mattress that was too firm, and he added 3" of 24 talalay.  He was pretty happy, but still thought it a bit too firm (some might say too much "push back" from the latex).   Then he added 1" of 5lb Sensus and he was quite happy with it. 

 

 

 



 

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