MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Sep 4, 2009 1:22 AM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1161
Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)...

As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it.

Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back.

So I did surgery on it tonight. 

I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread.

I did expect more from Englander...
I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!

What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands...

On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??!  I can never remember the name of that top piece! ) I removed that too because it's just  the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...

(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam!  That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!

So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up:

1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho)
3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?)
1" of Venus foam

So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness.

Will post more as the experiment progresses...

I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.-

P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while
This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #58 Sep 14, 2009 3:32 PM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
Jim, tell me what changes have you made.  I can learn from this, I have a torn rotator cuff, problem hip, and if I am not careful with getting the bed to soft for these ailments a bad back!  I am glad it is an improvement at least.  I too wonder if I will ever have perfection.  If my hips and shoulders are happy, my back is not.  If my back is happy the hips and shoulders hurt!
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #59 Sep 16, 2009 10:31 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1161
BeddyBye, the pix are HERE - make sure you choose to expand this very thread to see ALL!

TWalkman, no, you cannot start from the bottom I don't think. I am pretty sure the springs nowadays are designed for using only the top. If you have an old double sided mattress, then okay...  As to zoning, you can still turn the mattress from head to foot, just by keeping the middle the same and making sure the upper 3rd and lower 3rd are the same. Since in my experience the lower 3rd does not matter, you can put it the same as the top 3rd.

Some swear by zoning and some don't need it. I am not convinced I need it and in fact that is one of the changes I will make.

Leo, I'm a very odd case as far as sleeping which is why I HAVE to have a DIY mattress!

I have the same issues you mentioned: if I get it good for my shoulder, then my lower back sometimes hurts and vice versa. It's hard to get it right all over.
Then, sometimes I get it right for a few nights, then it hurts me again... It seems my body is always changing; i.e; one part hurts more one night, another part hurts more another night and it's hard to keep up with it.

I have a ton of different foams of different ILD's and thicknesses from experimenting over the years. Many of them I've cut into 3rds so I can zone or not zone.

So in changing my mattress I sometimes put memory foam UNDER latex, or sometimes even memory foam under the HR foam, with latex on top, or maybe some memory foam just under the latex.

Right now I am going to experiment with an extra layer of 1" HR foam just like the layer I have now, except it will be 2" instead of 1" and maybe only the bottom 1" will be zoned. How's that for fancy?! I just try to think outside the box, and maybe I'll make a great discovery some day. Maybe I'll be the George Washington Carver of mattresses!

So the experiment goes on. Actually last night the configuration I had - and how my body was - caused me to wake up a little sore. So I'll try something different.

I keep trying various things but I am almost convinced that I will NEVER have a mattress that is great for more than a few days or a week. I constantly have to change it.

Maybe I'm insane.

But I don't really think so. I just think I have back /neck/ shoulder problems that no doctor has been able to diagnose or fix but it's obvious even to them that I DO have real, physical problems, they just don't know what they are or how to fix them. So, as a result of this, since I cannot adjust my back/shoulders to normalcy, I am left with just adjusting my mattress to accomodate my back/shoulder abnormalcy!

But I keep thinking... "maybe SOME day I'll find The Answer!" 
This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #60 Sep 16, 2009 11:34 PM
Joined: Nov 4, 2008
Points: 223
Keep trying, Jim! You're doing a great job, and you're bound to find the perfect configuration at some point. :)
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #61 Sep 17, 2009 12:42 AM
Joined: May 3, 2008
Points: 827
No Jim you are not nuts if you are in pain, you are in pain.  I am trying zoning, I cut my firm latex and soft latex and memory foam in thirds.  I have the firm at the lowest third since that doesn't matter.  But I don't have loads of different latex and foams to try.  For two months I was happy with my setup, then suddenly my hips and shoulders were hurting.  That is disappointing when you think you got it right.   By the way I have 23ILD talalay latex and that is the softest I think I would want.  I have the Brylane latex and that is too soft, you just sink in to the next layer and don't get the benefits of anything (that is my opinion).  You were looking for even softer than 20ILD I thought I read.  Just my opinion.
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #62 Sep 18, 2009 4:05 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1161
You might be right, Leo, about a softer latex being too soft. But it is one thing I've never tried so I feel I owe it to myself to try it.
I would only use 1 or 1½ ", no more. How thick is your soft latex? Wanna sell it? I know what you mean about thinking you have it right and then finding a month or so down the road that it begins to hurt. I have had that happen several times.

One general rule I am finding (this works for ME, and I guess it only applies to those who feel the need for Springs under them) is that if I put too much foam on top of my springs, it does not work at all. I have to access the flexibility of the springs and if I put too much foam I lose that.

It could be that some day I may try pocket coils again if I can find someone who makes a good one for not too much money, or if I could find a very SLIGHTLY used one to buy, to try.

Two nights ago, just for an experiment I added another inch of HR foam to the mix, so I had 2" of HR foam instead of one inch under my 3/4" of latex and 1" of Venus foam. It was just too much foam, it killed my back!

I then took the  extra 1" of HR foam layer out , and added my wool mattress cover, and it was much better. But now it seems to lack just a LITTLE more softness. I am going to try an old crappy 3/4" memory foam layer or even a 3/4"PU layer, just to add a little more softness and see if that helps. But it seems that for me, anything more than 1" of medium firm or firmer foam is just too much. 1" seems to be the right amount, followed by some softer foams as "toppers".*

*However, it COULD be that if I had latex instead of HR foam, I could go with a little more of it...? I'd also like to try various latex ILD's and types (such as Dunlop) but I don't have them and hate to spend the $ right now.
This message was modified Sep 18, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #63 Sep 19, 2009 11:06 AM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
In reply to your last posting....you are correct that too much foam will negate the springs...I think you have found the magical number for inches of layering over the springs...but now just need to get the layers correct.  Too much foam will cause the low backache, IME.  It is such a trick to get it right for the shoulders and hips without losing the support.  For me, the support is IN the hip area, because that is what causes the low back ache.  If it is too soft, then my hips get too much lower than my body and my low back tries to lift it up all night.  Oddly enough, mattresses that address the lumbar region always seem to offer support at the low back, not the butt.  OTOH, the hip/butt area also has to be soft enough to be comfortable.  A real conundrum.
In my bed, there are inches of cotton batting over the springs(offset coils) and then 4" of foam on top of that.  Must be pretty high quality polyfoam because it took forever to break it in.  Added a polyfill topper and it is good.
IME, I don't like the feel of the pocket coils I've slept on (last bed had them)as much as the offset coils.  They are typically thinner wire and for me, seemed to sink without pushing back up as much as the offset.  But again, just my opinion.
Hope this helps.
Kait
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #64 Sep 21, 2009 1:05 PM
Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Points: 10
Jim, thanks for all the information, it is really helping me quite a bit.
So where did you find your Englander mattress?  I went around to a few stores here this weekend, and only a couple of them had Englander mattresses.  The lowest spring gauge i could find was 12-3/4.  What I want is the cheapest Englander mattress I can find with 12.5 gauge coil (cal-king size).  I'm guessing i can find something for under $800.  Then I will add the cuddle-topper from Costco.  Then i will wait a few weeks or months like yourself, and if I can back pain or discomfort, I will start the mattress surgery.

i am completely convinced that the expensive mattresses are a scam.  They might be slightly better, but nothing to justify the cost.  And after seeing the surgery pictures, there's no rocket science to these things.  it's clear that the mattress industry gets by because of a purposeful lack of information to customers.  It is very simply springs and foam, covered by fancy stitching.

Here's another example.  My parents are more well to do than I am.  My mom bought a cal-king Chattam & Wells mattress.  Sometimes, my mom is not the most rational person in the world, but she's pretty good when it comes to shopping.  However, she's the type where she will not admit that the bed is uncomfortable if she spent $4000 on it because that would mean she was wrong about something.  So there's a lot of psychology involved with these expensive mattresses, and the companies know it.  Somewhere in this thread, it was said that 78% of people who bought an expensive mattress were highly satisfied or something.  I call BS to that.  I think, sure, the mattress might be a little better, but i think there's a lot of psychology involved there because the people do not want to admit that their expensive investment sucks.  I think those statistics are highly unreliable.

now, back to my mom's mattress...before I even bought my cal-king mattress, i slept on it for a few nights.  My back hurt after anything more than 7 hours rest.  Now, I have never had back pain in my life!  Up to that time, I had been sleeping in a little twin bed (firm, Ethan Allen) my whole life, which is silly because I'm 6'3" and don't even really fit in it.  So, that made me wonder.  I looked at the mattress and I could see a noticeable sag, not that bad though.  It was a very plush pillowtop mattress, so of course there was going to be sag.  The sag makes my back hurt, I'm sure of it.

So later, my dad, who had been sleeping on another full-size pillowtop (cheaper brand), starting having his back hurt because of it.  My dad has at least some history of back problems, and he's older, so it obviously affects him more.  He told me that it was so bad sometimes that he couldn't even walk for half the day.  So he started sleeping on the ground, which was better for him (although not a great, by any means).  I told him to try the old firm twin I used.  he tried it and said it was better than the ground, but not great.  Then, he went back to the cal-king expensive mattress, and he said that's been the best so far, although not awesome.  So, according to my dad, the expensive mattress was the best.

However!!  I don't get much out of the situation, because all the beds my dad tried (except for my old twin) were these very plush pillowtops.  I think pillowtops are horrible because you never know where the sag is coming from; the plush or the springs?  And after seeing the mattress surgery pictures, I can't be sure of anything now.

but Jim is right, there needs to be something done about the mattress industry.  I've never seen such little information about products I've tried to research.  The entire industry can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, or at least have a huge makeover.  They are messing with our minds.  They know it's such a huge item physically that there is stres involved in returning/exchanging it.  They also know that foams and springs break down slowly enough where several weeks of comfort can pass before any discomfort occurs.  Their 10-year warranties mean nothing, because it has to do with only materials and defects...but since nobody knows what the materials are, all the power is in the hands of the manufacturers, so warranties don't mean a thing.  And the warranty is void if you open the mattress up.  They put all that nice stitching around the mattrress to make it look good, and that's all just for looks.  I hate this mattress industry so much.

So that's why my plan is this, based on Jim's information and my experiences:
--Buy a Cal-King mattress with 12.5 gauge springs for as cheap as possible (do I care about spring count?).  NO PILLOWTOP OR PLUSH (although this is very hard to find).
--I'll sleep on it for a while.
--Once it starts causing discomfort, it's mattress surgery time.
--Experiment with my foam layers, use a cuddle-topper from Costco to cover up the damage.

Total shouldn't cost me more than $1000.  And I bet the mattress will be better than any expenisve store mattress.
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #65 Sep 22, 2009 8:00 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1161
Kait wrote:
In reply to your last posting....you are correct that too much foam will negate the springs...I think you have found the magical number for inches of layering over the springs...but now just need to get the layers correct.  Too much foam will cause the low backache, IME.  It is such a trick to get it right for the shoulders and hips without losing the support.  For me, the support is IN the hip area, because that is what causes the low back ache.  If it is too soft, then my hips get too much lower than my body and my low back tries to lift it up all night.  Oddly enough, mattresses that address the lumbar region always seem to offer support at the low back, not the butt.  OTOH, the hip/butt area also has to be soft enough to be comfortable.  A real conundrum.
In my bed, there are inches of cotton batting over the springs(offset coils) and then 4" of foam on top of that.  Must be pretty high quality polyfoam because it took forever to break it in.  Added a polyfill topper and it is good.
IME, I don't like the feel of the pocket coils I've slept on (last bed had them)as much as the offset coils.  They are typically thinner wire and for me, seemed to sink without pushing back up as much as the offset.  But again, just my opinion.
Hope this helps.
Kait
Kait, you are the main person who convinced me to try springs, as I recall - ceratinly one of them - so thank you for that! I'm waking up much more rested and with less pain than I have since my last car accident 13 months ago.

IF I end up buying new springs I may try your "offset" type. The reason I went with the Englander was because I had slept on them once and liked them. And so far they do seem fine. One thing I am noticing (I think) is that the springs are getting softer and more comfortable already (only a month or so). It's hard to tell for sure because I also have changed the foam on top several times.

Here is what is working for me now:
1" of HR foam on the bottom - NOT zoned; all Medium ILD.
1" of Venus Memory foam on top of the HR
3/4" of latex probably 20-28ILD, not sure; probably Talalay
1-2" of a wool mattress cover on top of all that.

This last step has made a big difference for me. Using the wool instead of the Cuddlebed is just working better. It was a very expensive wool cover that I bought on sale years ago at Flobeds. It's from St. John's Woolen and I think we paid around $200 for the King but now they're closer to $350. I think it may have been advertised as 2 - 2.5" thick but when you lay on it it goes down to like ½. However it makes everything much cooler in summer (and from my previous use, also warmer in winter). Also it seems to "protect" me a bit from the feel of the latex which isn't always a good feeling, to me. And I have found that using memory foam as a lower layer works better for me, than having it near or on the top.

Since I bought the King wool pad, and then switched to 2 twins instead of a King, we had not really used the wool for years. So finally I took the plunge and got out the scissors and cut it in half. Now I am using it with one side open but soon will pay someone to sew it up for me.  I was afraid cutting it would somehow ruin it, but it was no problem at all.
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #66 Sep 22, 2009 8:38 PM
Location: L.A. area
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Points: 1161
mybackhurts wrote:
Jim, thanks for all the information, it is really helping me quite a bit.

-You're quite welcome!

So where did you find your Englander mattress?  I went around to a few stores here this weekend, and only a couple of them had Englander mattresses.  The lowest spring gauge i could find was 12-3/4.  What I want is the cheapest Englander mattress I can find with 12.5 gauge coil (cal-king size).  I'm guessing i can find something for under $800. 

-I would not worry too much about 12.5 vs. 12.75 springs. There may not be that much difference. If you weigh over 200lb, maybe the 12.5 would be best, otherwise it may not matter that much. Your best bet is to just look on the net or phone book under mattresses and call around and ask if they carry Englander. If they don't, tell them you really want a 12.5 gauge Bonnell spring; maybe they have it. One 12.5 gauge spring is probably as good as another. Maybe Kait can address this, I'm not sure that's true, but "for all practical purposes" it may be true. I paid $229 for a twin so you should be able to get a Cal-King for no more than $460 or close to that. Remember that mattress stores almost always have a LOT of room to discount and if they don't bring it down enough, politely walk out and tell them you're going to "shop around". You can always come back. For example, my Malibu Firm was marked at $400, the first store brought that down to $300, then the next store brought it down to $229. So that's a little over half the asking price. You might find the Cal King priced retail at $900. They should bring it down to no more than $500.

Then I will add the cuddle-topper from Costco.  Then i will wait a few weeks or months like yourself, and if I can back pain or discomfort, I will start the mattress surgery.

-The cuddle bed may or may not work for you. It doesn't provide much cushioning but sometimes I felt it was a bit too much pu foam for my liking. I'm not sure though. Other times, it seemed fine.

As to trying the mattress as-is for a few weeks, my GUESS is you will find it very uncomfortable, as I did and have to do surgery right away. The reason is that it will no doubt be similar to mine and have 3" or so of VERY soft, VERY non-supportive crappy foam; so one's body sinks right in, down to the spring level. With a quality, firmer foam as I have (1" of HR Medium) as my first (bottom) layer, that in itself provides support and keeps me from feeling the springs. Then I have a 1" of Venus - very dense - memory foam, then ¾" of soft latex on top and then a wool layer instead of the CuddleBed. The CuddleBed may work for you or may not. Someone on here just bought one and didn't like it. Maybe he/she will sell it to you? I am not sure if I liked mine or not. All I know is the wool I have is much better. Though I loved the way the Cuddlebed looked. But then again, as I always say, "HOPEFULLY, no one else is going to see it, other than you and your spouse!"

i am completely convinced that the expensive mattresses are a scam.  They might be slightly better, but nothing to justify the cost.  And after seeing the surgery pictures, there's no rocket science to these things.  it's clear that the mattress industry gets by because of a purposeful lack of information to customers.  It is very simply springs and foam, covered by fancy stitching.

-Exactly! It's just springs and foam. The ONE thing that might make a difference is if you bought one of the premium type springs. I'm not even sure those are worth it, but I say they MIGHT be worth it. And from what I can tell, even the expensive mattresses use SOME cheap pu foam, which  - if they do - negates the good foam they may put on top or under it. Better to do it yourself.

Here's another example.  My parents are more well to do than I am.  My mom bought a cal-king Chattam & Wells mattress.  Sometimes, my mom is not the most rational person in the world, but she's pretty good when it comes to shopping.  However, she's the type where she will not admit that the bed is uncomfortable if she spent $4000 on it because that would mean she was wrong about something.  So there's a lot of psychology involved with these expensive mattresses, and the companies know it.  Somewhere in this thread, it was said that 78% of people who bought an expensive mattress were highly satisfied or something.  I call BS to that.  I think, sure, the mattress might be a little better, but i think there's a lot of psychology involved there because the people do not want to admit that their expensive investment sucks.  I think those statistics are highly unreliable.

-I think so, too. Unless one is "filthy" rich, one should not be spending $4k on a mattress. I've yet to see one that had materials or tehcnology that would warrant that kind of money. And I'm sure plenty of people don't like them but just don't report not liking it. Or it may be like cars... With a new Honda, for instance, they get their "stats" by sending the new owner a postcard with questions on it about what they like about it, during the first MONTH. Well, yeah, the chances are that in fhe first month you are going to love it. If they wanted a true measure they should ask you after a year... So the mattress thing may be something like that.

now, back to my mom's mattress...before I even bought my cal-king mattress, i slept on it for a few nights.  My back hurt after anything more than 7 hours rest.  Now, I have never had back pain in my life!  Up to that time, I had been sleeping in a little twin bed (firm, Ethan Allen) my whole life, which is silly because I'm 6'3" and don't even really fit in it.  So, that made me wonder.  I looked at the mattress and I could see a noticeable sag, not that bad though.  It was a very plush pillowtop mattress, so of course there was going to be sag.  The sag makes my back hurt, I'm sure of it.

-I cannot imagine any way that a pillow top could be comfortable for more than a few months, MAX, if it has any pu foam in it. Only it it were pure latex could it last. Even very good memory foam like Venus breaks down or breaks in very quickly. I would not want to buy a mattress with it INSIDE. With a DIY mattress you can just replace it or turn it over or whatever... And even latex does break down or break in, so even that, you're better off doing surgery and putting in your own so you can replace it easily. Also, based on Alexander's revelation of how much profit they (the mattress co's)  add when they add better foams, if a company put in a $150 piece of latex, they would charge you probably $300-400 extra for the mattress.

So later, my dad, who had been sleeping on another full-size pillowtop (cheaper brand), starting having his back hurt because of it.  My dad has at least some history of back problems, and he's older, so it obviously affects him more.  He told me that it was so bad sometimes that he couldn't even walk for half the day.  So he started sleeping on the ground, which was better for him (although not a great, by any means).  I told him to try the old firm twin I used.  he tried it and said it was better than the ground, but not great.  Then, he went back to the cal-king expensive mattress, and he said that's been the best so far, although not awesome.  So, according to my dad, the expensive mattress was the best.

-I wonder if your dad would let you do a mattress surgery on the twin. If you use a cuddlebed topper - very inexpensive for the Twin - it wouldn't look bad at all. You could put some latex from FBM and some Sensus or other decent memory foam from overstock.com on top of the springs... Materials for doing surgery on a twin are anywhere between $200-300.

However!!  I don't get much out of the situation, because all the beds my dad tried (except for my old twin) were these very plush pillowtops.  I think pillowtops are horrible because you never know where the sag is coming from; the plush or the springs?  And after seeing the mattress surgery pictures, I can't be sure of anything now.

-The sag is almost always from the foam, not the springs. Unless the springs are 10+ years old, then maybe it could be the springs. But then again, the older springs were probably built to last longer.

but Jim is right, there needs to be something done about the mattress industry.  I've never seen such little information about products I've tried to research.  The entire industry can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, or at least have a huge makeover.  They are messing with our minds.  They know it's such a huge item physically that there is stres involved in returning/exchanging it.  They also know that foams and springs break down slowly enough where several weeks of comfort can pass before any discomfort occurs.  Their 10-year warranties mean nothing, because it has to do with only materials and defects...but since nobody knows what the materials are, all the power is in the hands of the manufacturers, so warranties don't mean a thing.  And the warranty is void if you open the mattress up.  They put all that nice stitching around the mattrress to make it look good, and that's all just for looks.  I hate this mattress industry so much.

-Join the club! Eventually the mattress industry will have to listen to us, and reform. They have - at this point - a reputation worse than used car salesmen. At least with a car, you know what the important components are.

So that's why my plan is this, based on Jim's information and my experiences:
--Buy a Cal-King mattress with 12.5 gauge springs for as cheap as possible (do I care about spring count?).  NO PILLOWTOP OR PLUSH (although this is very hard to find).

-They can order it. Most places can get special orders in a week, that's been my experience.

--I'll sleep on it for a while.
--Once it starts causing discomfort, it's mattress surgery time.

-For me, that was about 3 nights!

--Experiment with my foam layers, use a cuddle-topper from Costco to cover up the damage.

Total shouldn't cost me more than $1000.  And I bet the mattress will be better than any expenisve store mattress.

-Well, as a hard core believer in DIY mattress surgery, I agree. I hope it works out for you. The more people that do this, the more common it will become, and the more common it becomes, the less the mattress companies can get away with selling junky foam hidden inside expensive mattresses. That's the ultimate consumer's revenge against them. And if the springs are well made you should be able to keep your mattress going for 10-20 years by just replacing the foam. Also, the Firms are cheaper than the pillowtops, so that's less of an expense for you and less profit to the company!

Good luck! And please post your experience here in a new thread.
This message was modified Sep 22, 2009 by jimsocal
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
Reply #67 Sep 23, 2009 2:43 AM
Location: Yosemite area
Joined: Sep 10, 2008
Points: 249
Jim;
Glad the springs are helping.  There is just a different feel of support with them than with plain foam.  I was also thinking that people who pay big bucks for a product typically don't complain about it much, because in so many people's minds, you get more if you pay more.  But what you pay for something often has no relevance to how it will perform or last!!!  I believe in getting the most for the least possible, BUT won't accept crap. 
In this economy it is so important to get value for your hard earned money, waste needs to be a thing of the past.   Spending thousands of dollars, multiple times, on beds that don't perform and actually cause chronic back pain is just unacceptable.  I met a nice woman who lived across from my parent' s old house when we were moving my mom out.  She had crippling, chronic back pain.  Slept on a Tempurpedic mattress.  I cringed.  But, because those things cost so much money, and there is so much hype surrounding them, she didn't think that the mattress could POSSIBLY be part of her problem.  I did try to tell her, but to no avail.
Actually,  my topper is not actually a Cuddlebed...it is a mattress topper that is a down-like poly-fill mat, several inches thick.  No foam in it.  It is washable and fluffs pretty nicely but it does tend to flatten out in my problem area.  So I have to fluff it up every couple of weeks or so.  I don't have a Costco membership...there isn't enough that I'd save money on to justify the purchase of the card(toldja I was cheap!).
The offset coils are just a bit different than the Bonnell.  The tops of the coils stick up a bit, and give a bit of a different feel.  I think it depends on how the wires are attached.  I have had long discussions with Bill about this, but still as clear as mud.
Kait

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