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As most of you know I have been experimenting with my mattress which basically consists of, top to bottom, top 1/3 zone to middle 1/3 zone: TOP 1/3 of mattress (shoulder area) MIDDLE 1/3 of mattress (hip area) This is my current configuration which seems to work pretty well so far, though I'm still experimenting. But at first the zones I had made were killing my back and I figured out why: On the next to top layer, under the soft pu layer, I had different densities of foam so there was a line right at my waist which was the division between, say, a medium one What I realized is that I HAVE to have the same density of foam on that top layer (next to top layer, not counting the topper, it's the top layer). Otherwise I was getting a line of pressure across my waist from the difference in densities. I assume I also need to have the topper be an even firmness all the way down the length of the mattress.) So once I began using Medium firmness or medium ILD for that next-to-top layer for both my top 1/3 and the middle 1/3 of my mattress, that pressure line disappeared and This may not be true for everyone, but it was certainly true for me! Hope this might help someone who is zoning. I'm curious if anyone else has ever run into this problem. |
| Interesting. So your mattress is slightly higher at the shoulders, which is probably balanced out by the softer foam allowing you to sink in a little more there than you do at the hips. One thing I always wondered about with zoning is where you make the cut? |
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I think most of the zoned commercial mattresses I've seen make the top 1/3 smaller and the middle 1/3 bigger. But I decided to divide it into 1/3's so as to give me the maximum number of pieces of foam to interchange. Likewise, I don't think it's necessary to zone the bottom 1/3 at all, but having it cut into 1/3's gives me those extra 1/3 pieces at the foot section to interchange with otther areas as needed. While I have more foam at the top, it is so soft that it tends to be almost even looking by the time I put the fitted sheet over it. The visco I have at the top section is so soft that it mashes down to nothing. I think it is a challenge, however, to not have too much soft foam even there, or to not have enough - to get just the right amount, which may in fact be more height than the middle section due to the extra softness. I'm still not sure this is a good idea. Maybe it isn't. I got the idea from mccldwll as I recall, and so thought it was worth a try. The way I have it now seems to be fine as far as the shoulders go, and I've gotten rid of the "line of pressure" problem by having the 2 medium layers towards the top. But I'm still having problems getting my hip area at the right firmness so I don't have lower back pain or hip pain. Too soft and I get lower back pain, too hard and I get hip pain. Right now I have added an extra 3/4" layer of soft latex under the 1" PU foam becuase I had hip pain last night.. I'll see if that is better, or worse... |
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"I got the idea from mccldwll as I recall, and so thought it was worth a try. " Actually, I suggest that hip area be thicker than shoulders. Figure out minimum amount of foam at whatever ILD is needed for shoulders. Then for hips use higher ILD and whatever thickness is necessary to keep spine level/parallel to floor. |
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Jim, try getting some 1/2" HR foam medium to firm for your hip area. Half inch foam is great for fine tuning. You might want to remove the soft foam if it's giving you back pain and add some more HR foam to compensate. I think the density alone provides more padding than the same thickness of soft PU foam, and it definately gives you more support. What mccldwll makes sense since your hips will sink in more deeply than your shoulders. You sound like me in needing your hips not to sag into the mattress. I had to bolster mine with carpet remnant covered with a flat feather pillow and some HR foam under my 1" visco topper. Visually it's as bit higher than the rest of the mattress, but the stiff jute backing of the carpet remnant keeps my spine straight and the feather pillow and extra foam provide contouring and comfort. It's not perfect, but it will do until I reconstruct my mattress. |
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Cloud9, does the carpet cover your entire bed, or just across the hip area? I'm paying a lot of attention to all of this zoning talk as I think it won't be long before I take apart our mattress. We have only had the mattress for three months and I can feel the area under my hips that takes the brunt of my weight (all 125 llbs of me) starting to break down. It feels a lot softer than the rest of the bed, but visually looks no different, so I know there is no way that any warranty will come into play. We have been trying various toppers that I realize are only exacerbating the problem since they contour into the dip made by my hips. I think if I can have something a little more rigid across that area, it will create a better base for a (zoned) topper. Having the surface under your hips higher than your shoulders as mccldwll says, makes a lot of sense as the hips sink in so much more than the shoulders. I have checked this out by placing a fairly flat down pillow underneath me and can feel the relief on my spine as it is brought more into alignment. Thanks to Jim and mccldwll for sharing all of their great information about zoning. I'm finding it all very interesting. |
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kimmcgov wrote: We have only had the mattress for three months and I can feel the area under my hips that takes the brunt of my weight (all 125 llbs of me) starting to break down. It feels a lot softer than the rest of the bed, but visually looks no different, so I know there is no way that any warranty will come into play. It might be time to do surgery and remove any foam built in to your mattress and get down to the springs. Build off of that with new foam. It is surprising how fast this happens nowadays. |
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Kim, at the moment I have two foot mat sized pieces of carpet remnant on the bed. I picked them up at the 99 cent store to experiement. I was thinking of going to a carpeting store and getting a bed-sized remnant cut, but at times I like to move off the really firm area of the mattress on to something softer so I decided to keep things the way they are. One piece went under the hip area and the other one under the shoulders since I am one of those rare individuals that actually like it firm under my shoulder as well. The hip area also has a flat feather pillow over the carpeting and a sheet of half inch HR foam over the pillow. The shoulder area has a piece of soft eggcrate foam over it. Everything is covered by a 1" visco topper. I'm not sure the carpeting method will work unless everything is covered by one uniform piece of foam, and it certainly won't work for everyone, but it seems to be working for me. I was beginning to think it was just my imagination that the foam on the bed felt much softer and less supportive than it did a few months ago, but after reading Jimsocal's post about the foam on his Sealy, I'm sure it actually is much softer. Your post only confirmed it. Maybe it will be time to do some mattress surgery sooner rather than later. |
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mccldwll wrote: "I got the idea from mccldwll as I recall, and so thought it was worth a try. " Actually, I suggest that hip area be thicker than shoulders. Figure out minimum amount of foam at whatever ILD is needed for shoulders. Then for hips use higher ILD and whatever thickness is necessary to keep spine level/parallel to floor.
Well, thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. My mattress is getting better but I'm still tweaking it. I'll try some of these suggestions. Thanks. |
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Found this on Beckley (sp?) mattress site--"zoning" with extra materials (and I believe the Holland coil system is also zoned by definition): "Handfilled: All fillings material is placed in the mattress by hand. This enables the mattress makers to shape the matterss, putting more material where there will be the most body weight. This "crowning" of the mattress assures better wear." |
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Okay, so I remade my mattress from the top up today (most people "make their bed", I make my mattress! ;-) ) I won't go into the specifics of what I did yet, but I have 2 questions about zoning it: 1) You guys say to make the hip section thicker. Why thicker and not just more firm? 2) If I do add a layer - do I add it down low, towards the bottom, or towards the top - say, under the topper? And should the added layer for the hip zone be something soft, medium or firm? (I Irecognize these answers may not be definitively answerable but give it your best guess please) I did add a layer in my hip secton today but I was half asleep when I did it and I think I added it too close to the top and too soft... ;-( |
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jimsocal wrote: Okay, so I remade my mattress from the top up today (most people "make their bed", I make my mattress! ;-) ) I won't go into the specifics of what I did yet, but I have 2 questions about zoning it: 1) You guys say to make the hip section thicker. Why thicker and not just more firm? 2) If I do add a layer - do I add it down low, towards the bottom, or towards the top - say, under the topper? And should the added layer for the hip zone be something soft, medium or firm? (I Irecognize these answers may not be definitively answerable but give it your best guess please) I did add a layer in my hip secton today but I was half asleep when I did it and I think I added it too close to the top and too soft... ;-( 1) I hit upon making the hip section thicker just by accident: When my old mattress started sagging I stuck an old flattened feather pillow under all my toppers to fill up the ditch. It made the mattress slightly higher there, but I discovered when I slept on it the pillow squashed down under my hips but contoured to my waist making everything more comfortable and supportive. After reading mccldwll's post about the Beckley it seems like I was on to something. Simply put, thicker makes the mattress more comfortable where you are apt to feel pressure points and the contouring offers better support. Firmer on the other hand might just be hard. That's why I had to cover the carpeting--which makes the mattress firmer--with something that also made it comfortable to lie on. 2) I would put everything under the topper. This keeps all the pieces in place and provides a more or less uniform surface. However, if you have multiple layers you might find that placing various components at different levels in relation to the top layer fine tunes your comfort level more effectively. For instance I was experiementing with my 1" Brylane latex topper again. I liked the way it felt under the 1" visco but for some reason my pillow felt a little uncomfortable and I was getting a twinge of fatigue across my shoulder blades. This suggested to me that it was just too soft despite the fact that I had a layer of carpeting underneath the toppers. That got me thinking that I could just move the section of carpeting under my shoulder up one level and place it between the latex and the visco. This is why I like working with 1" layers. They are much more flexible than 2" layers. Moving the carpet section firmed up the shoulder area and fixed the problem. As to whether the hip area should be soft medium or firm. That's something you'll have to experiement with. Since you have lower back pain and need to keep your hips from sinking into the mattress, I'd say you need to go firm and then tweak the comfort layers as needed. This is where half inch HR foam comes in handy. You can place a layer or two over the firm support material and build it up to eliminate pressure points until you strike the right balance between the two. I'd try to stay away from using really soft foam in the lumbar area. I found this was making my back ache. HR foam is more supportive.
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jimsocal wrote: Okay, so I remade my mattress from the top up today (most people "make their bed", I make my mattress! ;-) )</p><p>I won't go into the specifics of what I did yet, but I have 2 questions about zoning it:</p><p>1) You guys say to make the hip section thicker. Why thicker and not just more firm?</p><p>2) If I do add a layer - do I add it down low, towards the bottom, or towards the top - say, under the topper? And should the added layer for the hip zone be something soft, medium or firm? (I Irecognize these answers may not be definitively answerable but give it your best guess please)</p><p>I did add a layer in my hip secton today but I was half asleep when I did it and I think I added it too close to the top and too soft... ;-( IMO, the idea/concept is to keep the spine parallel to the floor. Do the magic marker again, or if you used indelible, line should still be there ;). ILD or thickness accomplish the same objective, i.e., creating a final resting height for the hips. But if you rely on firmness alone, probably won't be comfortable enough. For example, if all you had to work with was @24 ILD material, you probably could make the shoulders 6" thick, and the hips 12"-15" thick, and end up fairly level (although that configuration if transitioned abruptly would put too much pressure in waist/thorax region. And to best distribute pressure, might find that a bit of tweaking with a 1" x 8" or so strip in the waistllumbar region would effective. |
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"The hip area also has a flat feather pillow over the carpeting and a sheet of half inch HR foam over the pillow. The shoulder area has a piece of soft eggcrate foam over it. Everything is covered by a visco topper. I'm not sure the carpeting method will work unless everything is covered by one uniform piece of foam, and it certainly won't work for everyone, but it seems to be working for me" Cloud9, what weight is your visco foam, do you know? Is it 5llb? And how is it holding up being only 1 inch thick? Did you try other materials (HR foam, latex?) before deciding on the memory foam? This message was modified Mar 1, 2008 by kimmcgov
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mccldwll wrote: IMO, the idea/concept is to keep the spine parallel to the floor. Do the magic marker again, or if you used indelible, line should still be there ;). ILD or thickness accomplish the same objective, i.e., creating a final resting height for the hips. But if you rely on firmness alone, probably won't be comfortable enough. For example, if all you had to work with was @24 ILD material, you probably could make the shoulders 6" thick, and the hips 12"-15" thick, and end up fairly level (although that configuration if transitioned abruptly would put too much pressure in waist/thorax region. And to best distribute pressure, might find that a bit of tweaking with a 1" x 8" or so strip in the waistllumbar region would effective. I have been doing the magic marker thing and having my wife take photos of my spine as I lay on my side. I have come up with various different combinations of foam in which my spine appears to stay straight. BUT, that doesn't seem to be the only factor. For example, as I mentioned before, if there is a big difference - or not so big difference - between the ILD's of my shoulders and hip zones, then I feel that as a line of pressure that goes across my body at the line (25" down from the head of the bed), and that causes me discomfort. The other night I tried putting just an extra 3/4" of soft latex in my hip section underneath the 1" PU egg crate topper that goes all the way across the length of my bed, so my mid section had that extra 3/4" of padding, and that KILLED my back! I woke up with a terrible back pain. Even though the photos showed my spine as being straight. I can't explain it. I only know what I felt. I suppose it is possible that the photos are "lying", that it looks straight but maybe is off a little. So I am trying to make the ILD differences further down into the bed, close to the bottom layer, not at all near the top where it will bother me. (Actually right now I am back to trying NO zoning, just straight across Medium.) As someone else said, I am making my mattress different every day and it's really getting annoying! Yet I have no choice, because I wake up with pain every day. I have thought many times in the past that maybe there is NO WAY I can make sleeping not hurt. That might be the case. But I feel the need to keep trying. So any further ideas or insights are welcome. |
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jimsocal wrote: ...I wake up with pain every day. I have thought many times in the past that maybe there is NO WAY I can make sleeping not hurt. That might be the case. But I feel the need to keep trying. So any further ideas or insights are welcome. If you are at your wits end, you might just want to try a self inflating Thermarest pad underneath one or two layers of latex. This has been the best solution we have tried so far. You can get one at REI where they have several different models to choose from. The XL size is 30 inches wide and they come in different thicknesses. You can tweak the firmness during the night by adding or letting out a little air. As I said in another thread, they are the equivalent of a poor man's Sleep by Numbers... These things aren't cheap, but unlike most inflatable mattresses, they are bomb-proof. And the great thing about getting one from REI is that you can return it at any time for any reason... |
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kimmcgov wrote: If you are at your wits end, you might just want to try a self inflating Thermarest pad underneath one or two layers of latex. This has been the best solution we have tried so far. You can get one at REI where they have several different models to choose from. The XL size is 30 inches wide and they come in different thicknesses. You can tweak the firmness during the night by adding or letting out a little air. As I said in another thread, they are the equivalent of a poor man's Sleep by Numbers... These things aren't cheap, but unlike most inflatable mattresses, they are bomb-proof. And the great thing about getting one from REI is that you can return it at any time for any reason...
We do have one of these but it's very narrow and not too thick - just used for camping. I think our's is way too narrow to use even for my twin bed. 30" wide might work. Too bad they don't make them 37" wide! Then we'd really have something we could play with in our modular mattresses! As to tweaking them in the night, are you using it right on top, below your sheet or what? If I put it under my topper(s) and fitted sheet I sure wouldn't want to get up in the middle of the night and re-make my mattress - take off the sheets, get down under the topper(s) and add or release air... But it would work as another "topper layer" in my mattress, perhaps the next layer from the top, under some latex or soft PU foam. |
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kimmcgov wrote: Cloud9, what weight is your visco foam, do you know? Is it 5llb? And how is it holding up being only 1 inch thick? Did you try other materials (HR foam, latex?) before deciding on the memory foam?
Have I tried other materials? Oh yeah! Lots of them. Fiber pads, eggcrates. I also have one of those Brylane toppers which I'm keeping for when I reconstruct my mattress. And then there's carpeting and HR foam and a flat feather pillow.... It's very complicated. Overall I like the feeling of memory foam best. It has this nice cradling feeling. Talalay just feels jiggly and unstable to me. PU foam is too mushy. I like HR foam for it's firm supportive qualities. But back to memory foam. I'm not really crazy about 5lb visco. It's too temperature sensitive and too slow to recover. In general I've found the lower the density the cooler the foam sleeps and the faster the recovery. This makes it behave more like conventional foam so you don't find yourself rolling back into a ditch. I know there are some new visco foams out there that are supposed to be ventilated to sleep cooler and some higher density foams that sleep firmer, but I like memory foam primarily as a soft top layer over firmer support materials. |
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jimsocal wrote: Hi, which thickness of the Thermarest are you using? As to tweaking them in the night, are you using it right on top, below your sheet or what? The ones we have are a couple of inches think (maybe 1.75 inches) and 27 inches wide. We have them on top of the mattress with the 1 inch latex topper and fleece wool topper over them. If you put the nozzle at the top and on the outside and leave your sheet loose there so you can pull it up and let out a little air if you need to in the night. To add air you'll need to get out of bed. It will only take a night or two to dial it in, then you are good to go and can tuck the sheet back in. Even though the pads combined are less than the width of our Queen size bed, with the latex and wool pad on top, it just looks like the normal crowning you get on a plush, non-pillowtop mattress. I do want to get something else that will replicate the firmness of the Thermarest as having a nozzle on the bed seems a little weird, but we are sleeping great on this set up -- better than we have in months. |
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cloud9 wrote: The 1" offers just a bit of cushiness without going too soft. It also has the added benefit of sleeping much cooler than the 2" 4lb visco. Maybe we should try a 1 inch piece of visco. 2 inches was not working as we ended up in a hole by morning with aching backs. |
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kimmcgov wrote: Maybe we should try a 1 inch piece of visco. 2 inches was not working as we ended up in a hole by morning with aching backs. That won't happen with the 1", but it is a very soft foam, so it you're trying to firm your mattress up a bit this will just take you in the opposite direction.
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kimmcgov wrote: Maybe we should try a 1 inch piece of visco. 2 inches was not working as we ended up in a hole by morning with aching backs.
I love the feeling of memory foam but what I found is that often it feels good the first few nights and then softens up too much. Maybe if it's just a thiin topper for softness, though, that is not an issue. It was surely an issue with the 3" stuff I was trying and even the 2" one: Not enough support, too much sinking in. |
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jimsocal wrote: I too would like to try a 1" to 1-and-1/2" visco foam topper, maybe a 3lb one. At first I thought I wanted to try the 5lb but then I slept on my 2" 4lb one and realized it was too hard for me. A 1" 4lb might work but I think if I buy one I'll buy a 3lb one. I do have a 3/4" 3lb one but it isn't quite thick enough and it's really more like 1/2" because it's convoluted. I love the feeling of memory foam but what I found is that often it feels good the first few nights and then softens up too much. Maybe if it's just a thiin topper for softness, though, that is not an issue. It was surely an issue with the 3" stuff I was trying and even the 2" one: Not enough support, too much sinking in. Jim, you might like the 1" visco from Overstock.com. I've had it on my bed since July and it still feels the same way it did when I bought it. Maybe because it isn't very thick, but just enough to give the bed a little bit of soft cushiness. It runs a bit on the skimpy side so get it bigger and cut it down if you can. I love the feeling of memory foam too, but 3" would be too much of a good thing for me. With just one inch lack of support isn't an issue because you don't sink in enough for it to become one. This message was modified Mar 7, 2008 by cloud9
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