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Here's the deal: We have 2 twin Sealys side by side due to my wife moving around a lot during sleep (restless leg syndrome) and me being a light sleeper. This way her bouncing around doesn't wake me up. For now we're going to focus on my bed and leave her's alone. We just fixed her up with a 4" memory foam we had laying around on top of the box springs, covered by a 1.5" memory foam topper. Seems to be working for her, at least for now. The 4 year old CostCo Sealy was giving us both lower back aches. So for me, what do I do? I have arms that get stiff and tingly at night. No one knows for sure what it is; I'm still looking into it and seeing a doctor again this week. I am fairly sure it's something called Thoracic Outlet Syndrome which has to do with nerves around my neck/shoulders being pinched and affecting my arms. I have lots of trigger points or knotted muscles in my back, neck and shoulders from an accident. and from working at a computer most days. Additionally I have lately found my lower back just above my waist wakes me up after about 5 hours sleep, with a lot of pain - not just in the spine area but all around my body in a circle about 2" above my waist. I can't sleep once it wakes me up; I just toss and turn until I can't stand it anymore and have to get up. There is NO position I can get myself into that does not hurt, but getting up feels better and after a few minutes of massage and moving around, I am mostly okay until the next night. The lower back problem is most likely affected by the configuration of my current mattress which is 3" of 4lb? memory foam over the box springs with 2" of soft talalay over that. Probably overall too soft, right? I emphasize though that I doubt my tingling arms problem is purely mattress related. i know this because I have slept on hotel beds with no difference, and I have lately been experimenting with various combinations and densities of memory foam like my wife's bed, except that I have the latex toppers. It has helped my upper shoulder problem but not my lower back or arms problems. Okay... So that's the background: Now, this is what I am proposing to do: Somehow take the Sealy mattress apart and get down to just the springs. Anyone know how to do this? Just an exacto knife or what? What tools will I need? And what will I put directly over the springs? I can put a what? 3" HD Foam core over them? with softer densities for my shoulders and legs? Or is 3" too much? And then try my low ILD latex toppers over that? And/or a 1.5" memory foam topper over it? I'm open to any ideas. I really am not sure how much of a core I'll need over the springs because in the past I experimented only with HD foam, latex and memory foam on the floor, not over springs. I tend not to like the feel of Talalay too much, though I respect it's support. I am thinking natural latex might be better for me if I can find some at a good price and get them to cut it for me so I can just buy the amount I need for zones. I think I might know of a place that can do that. I layed on natural latex a couple times and think I liked it better. So I'm open to ideas from you guys. I read the stuff about zones and it makes sense. I tried this a bit before but for some reason I dropped it. At some point, 4 years ago, after experimenting with dozens of different foam cores and toppers, we just got burnt out and gave up! Now that the old Sealy has proven a failure on all counts, I'm ready to start experimenting again! |
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Jim, looks like we moved to your back pain thread. My first impression is that you have WAY too much foam on your mattress, and way too much soft foam, which is probably contributing to your back pain. I don't recommend memory foam any thicker than 2" because of the hammocking factor. To top that off you have 2" of soft latex over that! 5" of very soft non-supportive foam. Ouch! No wonder your back is killing you after a few hours. Since your mattress is sagging all by itself, I think you should attempt the mattress surgery approach and go from there. Also, because you have the additional problem of neck and shoulder pain you may really need to zone your mattress reconstruction. Softer in the shoulders and firmer for your hips. I'm not convinced one size will fit all for you. Be aware that Talalay is not the same as "natural" where latex is concerned. Talalay is a process that pumps a lot of air into the foam. Talalay can be blended or natural. That is, it can be made with a blend of natural tree sap and synthetic petroleum based material. Or is can be made entirely of tree sap--hence natural. If you don't care for Talalay (and I'm with you there) look into Dunlop latex. Talalay is not a good fit for lower back issues. Dunlop is denser, more supportive--even at softer ILDs--and is more "passive" a foam than Talalay. It won't push back against you as hard as Talalay will. In fact the resilency of Talalay could be aggravating the nerve endings in your back and contributing to your pain. I had that very thing happen to me when I tried to sleep on a Talalay latex mattress. |
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"In fact the resilency of Talalay could be aggravating the nerve endings in your back and contributing to your pain. I had that very thing happen to me when I tried to sleep on a Talalay latex mattress." There is no way 2" of soft talalay is doing anything other than cushioning, and adding to the overall softness and depth (which allows the hips to sink even further relative to the shoulders, kinking the spine, and exacerbating your nerve problem). Dunlop may work better for support, but zoning really is the answer (or go firm with a lumbar pad, and learn to sleep on your back). Before cutting, try some folding/layering/zoning. Standing at attention, have spouse take a magic marker and yardstick and draw a line of dots down spine from neck to tailbone. Then lie on mattress and take a few deep breaths (you want to sink as much as possible into position you will be in after muscles fully relax--which IMO is why some mattresses feel great when going to sleep but people wake up with lower back pain). You want marked line to be straight AND parallel to floor. With 3" of mem foam and 2" of soft latex, it won't be. Try ditching the mem foam (or putting it under the Sealy up to thoracic region, since you probably will need to build up the lower 3/4 of the mattress about 3"). Double up the top 20" of the latex, running the rest of the latex to roughly the knee area. Use a blanket or whatever to add depth to knee to feet, as needed. If you have other materials at hand, great. But before going to sleep, get shoulder area very soft (may need 6" soft) and hip firm/elevated but cushioned for acceptable comfort). Don't worry about whether frankenbed is level, it's your spine that counts. Try straight AND parallel for a night. My back/shoulder issues aren't in the same class as yours, but zoning has made a huge difference for me. Good luck. |
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cloud9 wrote: Jim, looks like we moved to your back pain thread. My first impression is that you have WAY too much foam on your mattress, and way too much soft foam, which is probably contributing to your back pain. I don't recommend memory foam any thicker than 2" because of the hammocking factor. To top that off you have 2" of soft latex over that! 5" of very soft non-supportive foam. Ouch! No wonder your back is killing you after a few hours. Since your mattress is sagging all by itself, I think you should attempt the mattress surgery approach and go from there. Also, because you have the additional problem of neck and shoulder pain you may really need to zone your mattress reconstruction. Softer in the shoulders and firmer for your hips. I'm not convinced one size will fit all for you. Be aware that Talalay is not the same as "natural" where latex is concerned. Talalay is a process that pumps a lot of air into the foam. Talalay can be blended or natural. That is, it can be made with a blend of natural tree sap and synthetic petroleum based material. Or is can be made entirely of tree sap--hence natural. If you don't care for Talalay (and I'm with you there) look into Dunlop latex. Talalay is not a good fit for lower back issues. Dunlop is denser, more supportive--even at softer ILDs--and is more "passive" a foam than Talalay. It won't push back against you as hard as Talalay will. In fact the resilency of Talalay could be aggravating the nerve endings in your back and contributing to your pain. I had that very thing happen to me when I tried to sleep on a Talalay latex mattress. Sorry about all the info on my back pain, but I felt it was necessary in order for someone to make the proper recommendations for my mattress configuration. Maybe I did not make it clear that I do not have all this foam on top of a mattress, but rather on top of the box springs. We put the mattress on the bottom, upside down, just as a base because we do not have room to store it anywhere and aren't sure what to do with it yet. Since the bottom of the Sealy mattress is hard, not meant to be slept on, using it as a base, upside down does not affect the overall feel of the foam on top of the box springs, I don't think. I'd prefer to just ditch the mattress until we get around to cutting it open and replacing the foam, but we have no place to put it. I think I tried both types of Talalay and didn't like either one - like someone else said, and I think I also said years ago here: talalay seems to "push back" too much, for my liking. It really felt irritating to me. I did try Dunlop once in a store and seemed to like it better. I am now looking for a cheap source of Dunlop foam locally. Thanks for the tips. |
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mccldwll wrote: "In fact the resilency of Talalay could be aggravating the nerve endings in your back and contributing to your pain. I had that very thing happen to me when I tried to sleep on a Talalay latex mattress." There is no way 2" of soft talalay is doing anything other than cushioning, and adding to the overall softness and depth (which allows the hips to sink even further relative to the shoulders, kinking the spine, and exacerbating your nerve problem). Dunlop may work better for support, but zoning really is the answer (or go firm with a lumbar pad, and learn to sleep on your back). Before cutting, try some folding/layering/zoning. Standing at attention, have spouse take a magic marker and yardstick and draw a line of dots down spine from neck to tailbone. Then lie on mattress and take a few deep breaths (you want to sink as much as possible into position you will be in after muscles fully relax--which IMO is why some mattresses feel great when going to sleep but people wake up with lower back pain). You want marked line to be straight AND parallel to floor. With 3" of mem foam and 2" of soft latex, it won't be. Try ditching the mem foam (or putting it under the Sealy up to thoracic region, since you probably will need to build up the lower 3/4 of the mattress about 3"). Double up the top 20" of the latex, running the rest of the latex to roughly the knee area. Use a blanket or whatever to add depth to knee to feet, as needed. If you have other materials at hand, great. But before going to sleep, get shoulder area very soft (may need 6" soft) and hip firm/elevated but cushioned for acceptable comfort). Don't worry about whether frankenbed is level, it's your spine that counts. Try straight AND parallel for a night. My back/shoulder issues aren't in the same class as yours, but zoning has made a huge difference for me. Good luck. Thanks for the info. I can't sleep on my back. Have tried to force myself to learn to do it and I just cannot. I always wake up from a good sleep on my side (when I have a good sleep). I'm not sure I understand your instructions completely though. You say to dump the memory foam but to make the shoulder area very soft. Wouldn't I use the memory foam to make the shoulder area soft? Or are you saying to just use the latex only to make the shoulder area soft? The zoning idea sounds right. I did try one zoning method the other night but it didn't work for me. Maybe because the memory foam is too soft under my hips/lower back. I'll keep experimenting. Thanks especially for the method of measuring my body for zoning. |