Mattress Forum

I've also read posts that indicate FBMs 20 may be firmer than other manufacturers, something to consider. Its always tough to imagine the softness and what will work unitil you actually try it.

What did you think of the 32 ILD from SLAB? Was it the firmness you expected - how would you describe it compared to the other ILDs you have. Im looking for a middle core of a DIY so Id be interested in your opinion.

I guess I'm trying to achieve zoning by "cheating" -- that is, without actually cutting up any of these nice full slabs of latex that I've shelled out some dough for. (The 2" piece was $272, which is not exactly small change for me.) I have not tried toppers with the zoning built in, but that's certainly an option down the road if I can't figure out another way.

It is unfortunate that we apparently still can't quite count on FBM's latex to be exactly as it's advertised on their website. Could still be worth a shot. I might try adding a piece of scrap foam, just under my hips, first, only because that'd be cheaper, and I can find other uses for the scrap if that experiment doesn't work.

About the 32ILD piece from SLAB -- it might well be suitable for a middle layer or a just-below-the-comfort-layer layer.

I mentioned above that if I put the 24ILD piece on the floor, fold it over (so it's 2" thick), and lie on it, on my side, my hips and shoulders go right down to the floor. To get some comparison data, I just put the 32ILD piece (2") on the floor and lay on that.

When I lay on it on my side, it was surprisingly comfortable. I definitely did not bottom out. The only uncomfy thing was that my shoulders needed a little more cush to sink into, so they felt kinda crunched; my hips, though, were fine.

When I lay on my back on it, I did not sink in much, so I'd still need something more for lumbar support. (That is, the small of my back was not supported because I didn't sink quite far enough into the latex.)

Does that help? I think the latex will feel different depending on what's below it -- floor, innerspring mattress, firmer latex core, whatever -- but that was the only way I could think of to get a direct comparison, since there's no way to quantify how this stuff feels.

-Catherine

Edited to add: I'm back to wondering if I should have ordered a 1" 28ILD and a 1" 32ILD, or even a 2" 28ILD, instead of the 2" 32ILD. I have a couple weeks left in the 30-day return period. Don't quite know how I'd stuff that 2" piece into a box for shipping, but that's an option. Sigh. I'm so confused....

I could ask someone at SLAB for an opinion, but since they were the ones who suggested just 1" of 24ILD two years ago, and that turned out to be seriously inadequate, I'm not sure how much I'd trust their opinion this time around. Couldn't hurt to ask, I s'pose.

I need to do something, 'cause I'm waking up with lower back pain, which I think means that my hips are sinking in too far compared to the rest of me.

Still thinking this through: With just the 3" of latex, my hips are good but shoulders are crunched. With the 3" of latex plus the old fiberbed, my shoulders are good but hips sink too far. So, either I ditch the fiberbed and adjust the latex layers so I get more cushion for the shoulders; or I keep the fiberbed but bolster the hip area.

I hope that makes sense.....

Also... this is why it's better to experiment an inch at a time. I ignored my own guideline when I bought the 2" topper. D'oh!

proof1st wrote:

Couple things ... one is your cover may be causing your shoulder problems. The firm cover may be preventing your shoulders from sinking in. You can get a cotton terry cover from FBM that will be much softer and allow your shoulders some relief. A cheaper cover can be found here:  http://stores.ebay.com/PolySoftProducts?_trksid=p4340.l2563  Order a 3" cover.

Second I would order a 1" 20 ild soft piece of latex from FBM and try it with the terry cover along with the other latex you already have.4" of latex will fit into a 3" cover.  If it doens't work for you you can return it to FBM. The FBM latex is all natural tayalay which in my experience is a little more dense than the blended stuff even at the same ild and offers a lttle but noticeable support - ymmv though. I would be surprised if this didn't work for you. Give it a try! If it still isn't quite enough return the 1" and get a 2" from FBM in soft.

I was wondering about that. There is some give to the cover -- it's not pulled tight, even with 3" of latex in it -- but it is thick, nonstretchy fabric. The terry cover from FBM might be a better option, so I'll keep that in mind.

Because of their prices, I assumed that FBM's latex was blended Talalay. If it's really the all-natural stuff (their website says that it is), I'm curious where they get it and how they can keep their prices so low.

Yesterday I spoke with Evelyn at SleepLikeABear, and she said they've been hammered by price increases from Latex International 3 times already this year, so SLAB has had to raise their prices, too. (Another factor in that, according to Evelyn: LI closed their factory in California, so SLAB has to bring inventory in from Connecticut. Higher shipping costs, I s'pose.)

I really should have called SLAB before ordering my 2" 32ILD topper; I probably would have ordered a 1" 28ILD and 1" 32ILD instead. I think I need gradual transitions between softer and firmer layers. Evelyn mentioned that SLAB rarely has returns from people who order a series of graduated layers like that.

So anyway, I ordered a 1" N3 (equivalent to 25-29 ILD) topper from SLAB, squeaking in just before the rather hefty price increase. (Instead of going the cheap route this time, I decided to try the N3 piece and see if there's a difference in feel and point elasticity between the blended Talalay and the all-natural Talalay.) SLAB expedited the ordering processing for me, so the topper shipped yesterday, and I'll have it on 9/6, which gives me time to experiment with using it both with and without the 32ILD topper below it, before my 30-day return period on the 32ILD topper runs out.

I'm hoping I'm set now, but if I wind up returning the 32ILD SLAB topper, I may try FBM next.

Hope it works out well with the N3. Keep us updated!

The 2" 32 ILD topper was too firm for me, so it went back to SLAB, and I have received notice of the refund. That topper was an expensive mistake; the return shipping fee ate up almost half of my refund. (Heavy topper; very difficult to fold up into a manageable size by myself; had to spend $15 on a box big enough to hold it, 'cause it was still a big bundle of latex even after I'd compressed it as much as I could; and then $75 to ship from NY to CA. Ouch.)

After all that, I finally did what I should have done in the first place, which was to go back to the store where I bought my innerspring mattress, lie on the latex beds they sell, find out what's in 'em, and ask the sales guy if he can have the factory cut a latex topper for me. (The store is owned by Jamestown Mattress, a small independent family-owned business.) Sure, no problem. (Really good price, too. Can't fathom why I didn't think to go there first.)

So now I have, from top to bottom:
- a 2" very soft (14 to 17 ILD) Talalay topper from Jamestown Mattress,
- the 1" 24 ILD topper from SLAB, and
- the 1" N3 (25 to 29 ILD) topper from SLAB.

The top 3" are in the terry-cloth cover from FBM. I tried putting the bottom piece in, but the terry cloth looked like it was stretching too much around the zipper, and I didn't want to risk pulling the thing apart, so that bottom topper is just covered with an ancient sheet to protect it from the nubbies on the bottom of the FBM cover.

I'm hoping that I'm done mucking around with latex now and don't have to start messing around with zoning, but we'll see.*

The next thing to figure out is what kind of mattress pad to put over all this.

My really thick baffled pad is pretty flexible, still cushy in the shoulders, but flattened in the hip area, so when I use that, my hips still sink in too far compared to the rest of me, so I wake up with lower back pain. Which puts me right back where I started. Took that cover off, for now.

The past two nights, I used only my old cotton-covered polyfill mattress pad. First morning I woke up with slightly numb hands & arms; this morning, woke up with numb hands & arms and incredibly sore shoulders, so that pad has got to go. It's clearly too stiff and defeating the purpose of having the soft latex. Argh.

My understanding -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- is that the latex needs to be protected from moisture. I don't want any kind of mattress protector with a membrane -- they tend not to be breathable -- so I think that leaves wool. The wool might be great for regulating temperature and keeping dust mites at bay.

The very kind owner of Laughlin Designs (www.snuggledown.com) is sending me a fabric sample of the St. Dormeir wool & terry mattress cover. (As far as I know, there are no local stores that carry the Dormeir.) I know the sides of the cover will be stretchy enough, but I'm not sure if the top is stretchy enough to let the soft latex conform to me. 

Dang. Who knew that creating a comfy bed could get so complicated... and expensive....

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* Edited to add: Well, I just took off the old mattress pad and lay on the topper stack on my bed for a few minutes. Being right over the latex (with the terry cover) is better, but there is still not quite enough cushion for the shoulders.

So, I will need to mess around with zoning, or add an inch of memory foam to the stack. (Or just get another cheap polyfill fiberbed, knowing that I'll have to replace it when it compresses.) Phooey.  I was soooo close.

I went back to the store where I bought my mattress and ordered another inch of the super-soft latex. Should have it by the end of next week. That will give me 3" of soft latex, total, to put over the medium latex. If the 3" of soft still isn't enough for my shoulders, then I will use that new 1" piece of soft latex and the 1" piece of 24 ILD latex for zoning. (I'll double the soft stuff up under my shoulders & torso, and double the medium stuff up under my hips to prevent them from sinking in too far.)

Also, I received the fabric sample for the St. Dormeir wool mattress pad from Laughlin Designs, and decided to order the mattress pad. I think it will be stretchy enough not to affect the latex.

I'll update again when I've got everything put together.

(I've been experimenting for a couple of months, so this is gonna get long and might be a little disjointed.)

I have tried every possible permutation of the layering materials I have, and tried some zoning, and have yet to find anything that works as a comfort layer on top of my innerspring mattress.


Here are the latex layers I had (not necessarily all used at the same time) before I tried the zoning:

• 2" 14-17 ILD natural Talalay latex, bought from a local mattress manufacturer (I'll refer to this piece as 14 ILD; it is ridiculously soft, & quite fragile)
• 1" 14 ILD, from the same vendor
• 1" 24 ILD Talatech, bought from SleepLikeaBear in 2009 (still holding up well)
• 1" N3 (25-29 ILD) natural Talalay from SleepLikeaBear (flawless)

I also have an old thing that I've been calling a fiberbed but which was sold as an extra-thick (1") mattress pad, bought on sale at Kohl's 5-6 years ago. It held up for quite a few years but is getting too compressed to be much use now, and the softer latex was meant to replace it.

No combination of these materials worked -- and I tried them all -- so, on to the zoning.

First attempt at zoning:
I tried to do it artificially, without cutting up expensive latex or buying more of it. It almost worked -- and was certainly worth a try. I used a 5mm thick 24" wide yoga mat under my hips. The yoga mat cost all of $13, and I tried it in various locations in the layer stack (and in various permutations of the layer stack).

The difficulty here was that if I had the yoga mat in the right place to prevent my hips from sinking in too far, then it interfered with pressure relief, but if I placed it farther down in the stack to help with pressure relief, then my hips sank that much farther down, throwing my spine out of alignment and causing back pain.

Second attempt at zoning:
I ordered a 1" 32ILD scrap of Talatech from SleepLikeaBear. The scrap was about 30" x 78" (I cut it down to 54" to fit my full-size bed), and flawless. I cut up the 1" piece of 14 ILD latex, and put pieces together to create a layer that was 14 ILD for the first 30" (head & most of torso); 32 ILD for the next 30" (lower lumbar region, hips, thighs) and 14 ILD for the last 15".

I tried using that zoned layer in various places within various permutations of the layering stack (still using it for now, actually), but I didn’t get it quite right.

I think that (a) the difference between 14ILD and 32ILD is too extreme; (b) I don't have the right ILDs for either zone; and (c) I'd need more than an inch of zoned topper to get the required effect. That last point is probably obvious, but I was hoping I could get away with one layer of zoned stuff while keeping the rest of the (more expensive) layers intact.

It's possible that I am one of those people who cannot get the proper support from latex. Or maybe I could with different pieces – maybe the 20-22 ILD topper from SleepEZ, or, say, a few inches of 19-20 ILD for the shoulders, and 28 ILD for the hips -- but not with what I have now. Or, I should say, not with what I have that I am willing to cut up. Cutting a whole sheet of expensive, no-seam latex would just make me feel like I'm cutting up dollar bills.

(If I cut the 24 ILD or N3 toppers and still didn't get the zoning right, I'd be pretty mad at myself. Neither of these pieces has any seams; and buying new latex would be very expensive. The 1" 24 ILD piece that cost me $132 in 2009 now costs $216. So I'm not cutting them. If they wind up coming off the bed, they can be used elsewhere, maybe on a guest bed.)  (And yes, FBM stuff is much cheaper, but you never know what you're going to get with their latex. Their covers, on the other hand, are fine.)


Anyway…

I've become convinced that the 14 ILD stuff is just too soft, period. Feels like I'm crashing right through it -- my bony little shoulders go through that stuff like a knife. (I recruited a girlfriend to help me with this, check my alignment, and so on, and she confirmed that my shoulders go right down to the bottom of 3" of the 14ILD latex.)

Now, I know that the point of the softer stuff is that so my shoulders *can* sink in -- but I think there's such a thing as sinking too much or too fast... or too... something. And the 14ILD is clearly too soft for use under my hips, with or without zoning. I finally had to take the top 2" of soft latex off the bed because the sinking-in was killing my back and exacerbating my hip pain. (I don't typically have back pain, unless it's caused by my bed or by doing too much yard work.)

I've also concluded that even really soft latex, when it's solid, does not conform quite enough for someone like me -- i.e., side-sleeper with a pronounced hourglass shape. Having roughly a 10" difference between my waist measurement and my shoulder & hip measurements complicates things.

I've been told that this soft latex should be conforming to me, but I still wind up feeling like I'm in some sort of crater, and that just bothers me. Latex certainly doesn't conform the way memory foam would (nor did I expect it to), but I don't like the feel of memory foam, or the heat or the off-gassing from it. My polyfill fiberbed, before it wore out, seemed to conform more than the latex does.

I think the ideal comfort layer would be shredded latex enclosed in a cover with lots of small baffled squares to prevent the latex from shifting. Maybe even a zoned version of this, with softer shredded latex in the shoulder area and medium shredded latex in the hip area. Unfortunately, something like this would be labor-intensive and therefore very expensive to make.

Flobeds sells a shredded-latex topper, but its baffles are long rows, rather than lots of small squares. I could see getting my hips stuck in an area between rows. So that's out.

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Throughout this endeavor, every purchase I've made seemed logical at the time, based on what I knew at the time. But I've made some expensive mistakes and still can't figure out how to get both support (proper alignment) and pressure relief from latex. And this stuff is too expensive -- and too tricky -- to keep messing around with. And I don't think I should need physics and engineering degrees just to create a decent comfort layer for my bed.

Along those lines: The advice that is often given on this forum -- buy a firm mattress and then "just" add toppers -- also made sense to me at the time (when I bought my extra-firm mattress in 2009). However...

...there is turning out to be a big huge gap between theory and experience.

Next time, I think I'd still buy an innerspring, but get a comfier one -- not a pillowtop, but a somewhat plush mattress -- and be prepared to do mattress surgery whenever the foam gave out.

(Please note that I'm not blaming the forum; it's generally very helpful and I made my own decisions. The problem is that adding a comfort layer turns out to be anything but simple, at least for a side-sleeper.)

In the meantime, my current innerspring mattress is only 2+ years old and has plenty of life in it, so I still need toppers.

So I've ordered a new fiberbed -- two, actually, both returnable. Obviously, I'm really hoping that one of these things will work, with or without my zoned layer underneath. I'll let y'all know.

------------

There is one piece of good news here: I'm really liking the St. Dormeir wool mattress protector. It is surprisingly stretchy, so it doesn't interfere with the toppers, and it seems to help with temperature regulation, at least so far (in fall & winter). So I highly recommend it.


------------------------------------------------

One last bit, in case anyone's interested: I did a bunch of floor testing with the various layers, trying to isolate variables. In the list of results below, when I say "bottom out," I mean that I'm lying on my side, and my hips & shoulders compress the latex all the way and go right down to the floor.

The results, in case anyone wants to compare their own builds & experiences:

• 2" 14 ILD latex (solid piece) -- bottom out
• 3" 14 ILD latex (the 2" piece + the 1" inch piece) -- bottom out
• 2" 24 ILD (the 1" piece folded over) -- bottom out
• 3" 14 ILD over 1" 24 ILD -- bottom out
• 1" 14 ILD over 2" 24 ILD -- bottom out
• 2" 14 ILD over 2" 24 ILD -- bottom out
• 2" N3/27 ILD (the 1" piece, folded over) -- bottom out
• 3" N3/27 ILD (1" piece folded in thirds) -- bottom out, or very close to it (that was a surprise)
• 2" 24 ILD over 2" N3/27 ILD (each 1" piece folded over) -- hips were kinda OK with this, but shoulders were still seriously crunched; I'd probably need more 20-24 ILD and less 27 ILD for them
• 1" 32 ILD (the large scrap piece I got from SLAB) -- bottom out
• 2" 32 ILD (the 2" solid topper that I tried out and then returned to SLAB) -- no bottoming out. Not good for pressure relief, but no bottoming out.

In all of these bottoming-out scenarios, it's my shoulders that hurt the most. They seem to need a more gradual transition to firmer layers below, or... something. Damned if I know....

 

I didn't want to order latex without trying it and go through the possible headache of having to return it, so I got a 2" thick fiberbed with small baffles (to keep the filling from shifting) to put on my new, way-too-firm bed, then under it I put a cheap egg crate foam slab from Walmart. This combination turned my bed into comfort heaven for me  - so soft and comfy but still supportive for my midsection. I suffered a back injury last year and have gotten up stiff and painful every morning, but since I put this bed together this summer, I have no pain whatsoever!

Hope you hit on the magic combination as well.

...trying to isolate variables."

You're not going to want to hear this idea, since you know the mattress itself, as-is, could not be among the confounding variables, but I went through exactly what you describe & then some, assuming there'd be some ultimate combination of foam I could add that would make it right.  It wasn't until I extracted my inersprings, leaving nothing between them & my latex, did all the layer swapping & buying/returning foams end.

 That junction between spring & foam is a huge potential weak spot.  Just like how having too much of anything between yourself & your top layer can rob latex of its conforming properties, inersprings can be hamstrung by their own foam & casing.  You still want the springs' action to transmit through & work with that of the foam's to some degree, and that never happened buried inside a mattress I was merely piling on top of.  If you were just down to the springs, assuming they're of sufficient coil type & count, I'd bet any of your layers would work.  Then it wouldn't feel so much like bottoming out, but flexing into & working with your springs.  It's just hard to abandon all the nice mattress pads & encasements, & even harder to cut into a mattress, but I've done it twice now, & am convinced a mattress' comfort layers must be entirely replaced, not just added to.

One of the fiberbeds I ordered should arrive on Wed.; not sure about the other one. I was hoping to get away from the synthetic stuff (even though my mattress has some), and fiberbeds need to be washed in a big commercial washing machine (or dry-cleaned, depending on the item), so that's a nuisance, but if one of 'em lets me sleep without pain, I'll be happy.

JasonRatky wrote:

Sure I do!

I might not follow through and do mattress surgery just yet (you're right about that; I don't want to cut into my mattress at this point), but I appreciate hearing about what has worked for other people.

The springs in my innerspring are still quite springy, but I have to say that getting the extra-firm was a mistake. One I could fix with mattress surgery, but... I'm not quite there yet.

Edited to add: Thanks for the reminder about mattress surgery as an option. Assuming that the springs hold out longer than the padding in my mattress (which they probably will), I'll probably want to use my full sheets of 24 ILD and N3/27 ILD latex as part of the replacement foam, when that day comes.*

* Which might be sooner than I anticipated. I have noticed some loss of cushioning in the mattress, and I think this has been contributing to my back pain. I believe that the "extra firm" designation of my mattress comes from its having 3 layers of fiber mat over the springs, not from having higher-density foam. So even though there's not a lot of foam (it's a flippable mattress, not a pillowtop), it's probably getting pretty well compressed after 2.5 years... especially since I've been lax about flipping & rotating the mattress on a regular basis.

For now, I have a thin (1/4" at most) piece of plywood over the foundation, in the hip area, and an old mattress pad folded in half over that. (Of course I tweaked my back while heaving the mattress off the foundation and back on again. Argh.) I'm studying the mattress-surgery threads just in case.

"..and fiberbeds need to be washed in a big commercial washing machine (or dry-cleaned, depending on the item), so that's a nuisance"

I know. I weighed the "nuisance" factor in when choosing a topper and this seemed less of a nuisance than ordering a latex topper for way more than twice the price then struggling to pack up a huge, heavy slab of rubber to return (AND pay a large shipping fee) it I didn't like it. I chose what for me was the lesser of two evils.

I wound up with 14 ILD because I bought it from a local bedding manufacturer, and (as far as I know) they don't have 19 or higher. Their latex beds use 14 ILD Talalay over 16-19 ILD Dunlop and/or 24-27 ILD Dunlop. (The softer Dunlop might have been fine for me; not sure I was aware of it when I bought the soft Talalay.) And at the time I was looking at the foam scraps available from SleepLikeaBear, the 32ILD piece looked like the best bet (no 28 ILD); the scraps available vary.

The profile tool at CSD recommended 19 ILD for the shoulders and 28 ILD for the hips on down, for the 2nd (3") layer of the mattress (the layer that would go over the 6" core). For the very top layer (2"), the tool recommended 14 ILD (shoulders) and 19 ILD (hips), but I still think that would wind up being too soft. Dunno. The CSD tool also recommended a 32 ILD core, but I can't imagine that being firm enough.

The CSD profile tool is useful for anyone just starting out with their mattress & topper choices. A little discouraging to use after one has already made a bunch of mistakes.

Oh well. Maybe other people here can learn from my failures. 

Actually, I'm now fairly sure that the mattress is one of the confounding variables.

If I take all the soft latex and the fiber bed off the mattress -- which I did -- and leave only the medium-ILD latex on there -- which I did -- and I still wake up in a sinkhole -- which I do -- then the mattress has to be the problem, right?

(I suppose it could be the latex, but I've got an inch of N3/27 ILD, bought a couple months ago, an inch of 32 ILD Talatech, bought recently, and an inch of 24 ILD Talatech, bought 2 years ago but still in good shape as far as I can tell. None of that should be cratering. I could try taking everything off and sleeping on just the mattress, to be sure, but that would be pretty uncomfortable. We'll see.)

Even after I put a thin piece of plywood between the box spring and the mattress -- across the hip zone -- and put a folded-up old mattress pad on top of that -- to boost that zone some more -- I am waking up in a sinkhole, and with a very sore lower back.

It's not a big enough sinkhole to activate the warranty, and during the day, I think the compressed foam (in the mattress) expands a bit, so the mattress looks relatively flat. There's not a giant body-impression in it. But I am clearly waking up in a sinkhole... which would certainly explain why none of my zoning attempts have been working. (D'oh!)

Methinks I shall be cutting a slit in the mattress top very soon, so I can peek at the innards and see what's going on in there.... At this point, I've got nothing to lose.

Do you know what foam is inside the mattress?  9" flippable does not sound like a lot.   What brand?

I believe the foam is low density, and it is in the top layer.

I couldn't stand it anymore and just cut open a slit in the top panel, near the edge but above the piping, 'cause I wanted to see what's inside. There's about an inch of PU foam quilted into the top, and then about an inch of convoluted foam beneath that. Then there's just about a half-inch (maybe less) of dacron, directly over the insulator-pad thingie, which I think is directly over the springs.

Here's a link to the current specs for the model of mattress I have: Elegant, from Jamestown Mattress, a local independent bedding manufacturer. Possible that the specs have changed slightly since I bought the mattress in 2009 -- I think my coil count is higher -- but the foam parts of the specs probably haven't changed much. (I'm guessing here.)

At this point, I'd still recommend Jamestown Mattress -- everyone I've encountered there has been knowledgeable & friendly & straightforward; the price was good; they're *not* one of those chain stores that have "lowest prices of the season" sales every other weekend; and the low-density PU foam is probably the only weak spot in the mattress construction. (Unfortunately, it seems that just about every innerspring-mattress-maker uses some low-density PU foam.) Jamestown also makes some latex mattresses, memory foam mattresses, and mattresses with various combinations of materials. Next time, I'd probably just ask them to custom-make a mattress for me, either with coils & latex or just latex, and have them leave out the PU foam in the top layers.

At any rate... now that I've gone this far, I might as well do a foamectomy. Probably not today, though -- I want to go a fabric or crafts store and get some No-Fray stuff first. (I was just in Joann's Fabrics yesterday, but didn't buy the No-Fray stuff 'cause I didn't think I was doing mattress surgery right away. Guess I'm goin' back there soon....)  I also need to do some other things around the house today, though.

----

Follow-up on the fiber-beds I ordered a week or so ago:
I returned both of them. One was too thin to do any good; the other had flat spots & lumpy spots even when brand new. At least it didn't cost me anything to try them. One return was local; the other was paid for by the vendor (Overstock.com) because of the condition it arrived in. And I'd gotten free shipping on both items when I bought them. So, they were worth a shot, but no-go.
 

It's just as well you decided to the mattress surgery, since no topper I know of is helpful for a bed with sinkholes, but are mainly used to soften a  too-firm mattress. Putting a topper on a sagging mattress just means you just end up in a cushier sinkhole!

Hope you will update on your progress.

I know! I hate to think about what I've been doing to my back & my hip all these months that I've been fighting with the toppers!

Part of the problem is that the mattress doesn't show a big, deep body-impression. There's a sinkhole by morning, but no permanent huge crater that screams "time for mattress surgery!" So I really didn't think the mattress was the problem... until the last few mornings.

Yup, I will.

Another issue is the fact that it is two sided.  I don't think the foam on the bottom side will cause a major effect, but hard to say.

I also wonder about the coil system.  My Sealy queen (pretty firm coils) has 782 14 gauge coils.  It looks like yours has less and thinner coils, although I am not totally sure of your coil count.  It is is possible they are not providing enough support as well.  You may want to try to estimate the number if you do the surgery.  The test would be to see how firm it is with just the coils and a fairly firm piece of latex.

FIFY.

I'm mid-surgery now. I've got the quilted cover cut on 3 sides, and I'm tempted to just go ahead and cut it off entirely. It doesn't have tons of foam quilted into it -- about an inch -- but it's squishy low-density stuff, so I'd think that it would have to be part of "the weakest link," along with the convoluted poly foam I've already taken out. And the quilted panel probably interferes a bit with the feeling of the latex. Decisions, decisions....

I'm leaving the plywood and the folded-up old mattress pad between the foundation and the mattress, so that should help combat the compressed foam on what is now the bottom of the mattress.

Can't see the coils, because of the fiber-pads, or insulator pads, whatever they're called, over them. (They're attached in some way, and I don't want to detach them.) So the coil count might remain a mystery. This is a full-size bed, though, not a queen, so even if it does have just 528 coils, I would think they'd last a while.

The mattress manufacturer has "Good," "Better," and "Best" product lines, and this mattress is in the "Better" line. Came with a 10-year warranty, I believe, so even with the foam giving out, those springs should -- theoretically -- last a few years, especially with me being on the light side.

[Edited to add: With just the coils and a sheet of latex, the mattress feels pretty firm and springy.]

I've got all the latex spread out in my bedroom, and am fiddling with zoning now. I will still need some zoning.

More later...

Or maybe not....

When trying different zoning & layering configurations, I've been checking my spinal alignment by using mirrors. (Portable long mirror propped up against the wall, and a handheld mirror used to see my spine reflected in the other mirror.) I'm really not seeing much of a difference with any of my various configurations. (One new element to play with: a 1" layer of the FBM 20 ILD, which actually feels more firm than my 32 ILD Talatech scrap from SLAB.)

Around 11 PM, I got fed up with all of this fiddling, after spending all afternoon and all evening on it, and finally just dispensed with all the zoning attempts. I didn't use or need zoning during my first year on the mattress, so... maybe I just thought I needed zoning recently, when what I actually needed was to get the PU foam out of the mattress? Damned if I know.

What I finally wound up sleeping on last night (top to bottom):
* the 1" layer of 14 ILD (with the pieces put back together to make a whole layer again)
* 1" of 24 ILD
* 1" of N3/27 ILD
* 1" of FBM 20 ILD (on the bottom because it feels like the firmest of the bunch)
* the mattress core: coils, covered by fiber-pads, covered by a layer of dacron

This arrangement was not great on the pressure points -- no big surprise there. My shoulders & hips are a bit sore this morning, but my arms did not fall asleep, so that's something. Still some slight lower-back pain -- makes me wonder if I now have too much stuff between the mattress & the foundation. (I added a piece of the convoluted PU foam there, across the hip area.) But I did *not* feel like I was waking up in a sinkhole, and I didn't feel like I'd crippled my back overnight.

So, next things to try: taking out that piece of foam between mattress & foundation; and switching the 1" layer of 14 ILD with the 2" layer of 14 ILD. I'm still not fond of that stuff, and I think 19-22 ILD would be better, but the 14 is what I have, so I'll try it next.

If I go right through the 2" of 14 ILD, then I believe it will be time to go over to the dark side and add an inch of 4lb or 5lb memory foam, and hope the off-gassing doesn't kill me. (An inch of memory foam will likely be cheaper than an inch or two of 19 ILD latex from SLAB or 1.5" of 22-24 ILD from SleepEZ.)

When I bought the 20ILD latex from FBM, I also bought a 3" thick 5lb memory foam seat cushion for my office chair. I don't think I'd want to sleep on 3" of the stuff, but it ain't bad as a seat cushion; it came with a nice terry-cloth cover; and there's no off-gassing that I can detect (i.e., no chemical smell).

Some notes about the FBM 20 ILD latex: it's full size (not shorted at all); no seams; no tears. Not at all comparable to SLAB's 19 ILD; as other people here have said, the FBM latex feels much firmer than that. Pretty sure it's blended Talalay, not all natural. Not sure if I'll keep it -- it might be useful as a transition layer between the medium-soft latex and the mattress coils... or it might not.

 The latex you have above the springs sounds like it should be okay.  If you get everything firm enough, you might want to try adding 1-2" of memory foam for pressure relief and comfort.   After that, if it seems pretty good, but your shoulders seem too jammed, then you might consider adding a softer zone under the shoulders.

p.s.  My current configuration over pretty firm Sealy coils is 2" of 32 talalay (~20 cutout under shoulders) + 1" 5lb. Sensus memory foam + 1" 19 talalay + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam, covered with Natura washable wool mattress pad.    This is a bit softer than I have used recently, but in winter I like it a bit softer and cozier.  I tend to find 5" over the coils is best for me, but as I have said my coils and box spring are pretty firm (one sided ~760 queen interlaced 14 gauge).

Not a traditional box spring; just a wooden foundation that came with the mattress. I'm not sure what could sag, since there are no springs in it, but if something is sagging, the thin piece of plywood I have over it (extending across the bed, in the hip area) might take care of that. That's what I'm trying, anyway.

The whole shebang is resting on an old wooden bed frame, with 8 slats running across. (Used to just have 4, but when I bought the new mattress, I added 4 more slats.) The foundation has a center rail running lengthwise as part of its construction.

That's just something I tried last night. It ran only across the hip area -- I was operating on the theory that maybe any foam sagging in the bottom of the mattress might need some bolstering. Not sure it did anything, one way or the other, so I took that out today.

Honestly, I don't know. They feel firm & springy when I'm lying on just the mattress, or just the mattress & a sheet of latex.

However, I just stood on the mattress and walked around on it a bit, and there is a marked difference between the left and right sides. The side I sleep on sinks down much more. I don't know if that implicates the coils or the foam under the coils. (It does tell me that I didn't rotate or flip the mattress often enough, which I sorta already knew.)

I don't know that, either, and don't know how to eliminate that as a variable.* I'm guessing that it's sagging, because of the sinkhole issue, but I don't really know. With the mattress de-constructed as it is now, I'm not sure I'd be able to flip it over and test it. (I might attempt to rotate it, though.)

Because the mattress is double-sided, the coils are covered by the fiber-pads & dacron on both top & bottom.

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* Had an idea. I don't want to detach the entire fiber-pad, but I detached it in a few places on one side, and put two sets of weight plates in there (a 5lb plate over a 10lb plate in each set), directly on the coils. Put one set in the hip area on the side I've been sleeping on, and shoved the other set over to the other side. I can't tell by just looking whether there's a difference in how much the weight plates sink, but when I lay a level across the area (the level is resting on both plates), nothing shows up. The level shows the plates being... level.

Don't know if that helps or not, or whether 15 pounds in each set is enough.  (OK, I just added another 10lb plate to each set, and the level still shows everything as being level. Is 25lb per set enough weight to implicate the foam on the bottom, as opposed to the coils? I weigh about 120 lb.)

Could the fiber-pad be a factor? Could it be worn out? Or since it was already partly detached on my side when I decided to stand on the mattress, would that be a factor? Seems to make a difference if I yank on the thing to tighten it across the mattress, but I could be imagining things by now.....

Also, the side that seems firmer is the one with the top quilted panel still attached, so there's more structural integrity over there. On the side I've been sleeping on, there's not a lot holding the whole thing together anymore. For all I know, my weight (when I was standing on the mattress) was pushing things outward and not just downward. This testing is hard to do with just one person.

-------------

That makes sense.

Thanks for all your help, sandman. This problem has been driving me nuts for several months, and aside from the sleeping & pain issues, which are enough in themselves, it bugs me no end that I can't figure this thing out.

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Just thought of something: On the various specs pages of the Jamestown Mattress website, I don't see anything specifying what size mattress the specs are for. So I don't know if that 528-coil-count is for a twin, full, queen, or king. When I bought the mattress, I was told it had 660 coils, but who knows if that's accurate? Sigh.

Catherine, the whole zoning thing (which I am now pretty convinced is the answer for me, been sleeping on a crude zoned system for a week or two now, while meanwhile cutting a lot of firewood and other back-aggravating activities, and ZERO back pain, knock on wood ...) seems to me to make a lot more sense for males that females.   My shoulders are much wider than hips (circumference is like 15" more, when I measured for CSD's tool), so with un-zoned system my hips will be much lower, hence kinked spine and back pain.

Seems to me that the same geometry does not apply to women, generally speaking.    Not to get too personal :-) but based on your height/weight it sounds like you have a fairly classic feminine shape.

I honor you for using mirrors.   It's JUST the kind of geeky thing I would do - although I haven't yet.   A simpler way might be a camera on a tripod using the self-timer or perhaps a remote shutter release.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that, especially since I did not need any zoning for the first year on the mattress. My bone structure gives me an hourglass figure, of sorts (but without the Marilyn Monroe-esqe voluptuousness): about 38" for the shoulder circumference, about 28" waist, and about 38" at the hips. The CSD tool gives me results that specify zoning, but that's just someone's set of algorithms, which might or might not apply to this particular body.

I'm a tad long in the torso, and that makes me think more about the conforming aspects of memory foam. I might have to try an inch of it, just to know one way or the other.

Well, thanks. I don't have a tripod, though I might be able to set something up, but I don't have a remote shutter release, either. I suppose I should find out if my camera has a self-timer. It's an old one (in technology time-spans), but I have the manual.

I have spent way too much time on all this, but don't really feel like I have a choice, given what the mattress has been doing to my back the past few months.  And I still don't know whether the PU foam or the coils (or both) are the culprit(s). 

---------
(If using weight plates and a level isn't geeky, I don't know what is... )

Foundation sounds like it should be okay.   You can try laying right on it to see if it seems to sag at all.  You should try lying on both sides of the mattress to see if they seem different.  Walking or using weights may be too difficult to tell.   If there is a material difference, then you may have a problem beyond just the foam you removed.   You should not have the quilted panel over it for testing, but if it is hanging over the side it should be okay.   How thick is the fiber pad?  You do want to keep something over the coils.  Also, are the coils wired together?   I assume they are not pocketed coils.

Yes, taking the top of does affect the structure integrity a bit.  It probably helps to have a tight and tucked in mattress pad over it.  Most of the mattresses also have foam or some kind of support around the edges, which can help as well.

Keep at it!  You may want to sleep on it a bit before making any more decisions.  Possibly rotating to see what the other side is like as well. 

The coils are wired together. These are Lura-Flex offset coils (link to PDF).

If the problem does involve the coils, then I will have no clue what to do next.

I did not have the quilted panel over the mattress for testing. Just the Novabond fiber pads (& maybe the dacron, I don't remember now).

The sheet of dacron is about half an inch thick; seems fine. The Novabond fiber pad is really thin, maybe 1/8" inch.

I thought I was told (when I bought the bed) that to make this thing "extra firm," there was an extra pad across the hip area, or maybe across the entire bed, but there isn't one that I can see; there's just the Novabond pad and the sheet of dacron. It's possible that I'm remembering wrong... but it's also possible that what I got and what I thought I was getting don't quite match, for whatever reason. Maybe the guy at the store got the specs mixed up, or maybe I got the specs mixed up. No way to know. (I don't think anyone there was dishonest; if there is a mismatch, then one of us just got things mixed up.)

A mattress pad would probably help, though I can't put one on until I either put the quilted panel back over the top or cut the panel off altogether.

There is some foam around the edges, but not a lot. I might need to pick up a cheap mattress pad to keep everything together, and/or attach some straps of some kind to pull the sides closer together.

I just rotated the mattress. We'll see if that makes any difference, along with the extra inch of 14ILD for pressure-point relief.
(Such an exciting New Year's Eve here.... )

Welp, so much for the hope of waking up on New Year's Day feeling refreshed. Waaah.

I woke up in pain at about 5 or 5:30 AM; my shoulders & hips were throbbing (still are, 5 hours later). Finally got up around 6:30 and stripped the bed again. Took out the FBM piece; put back the N3 piece; folded the quilted top panel back over the mattress; put on my thin fiber-pad; then the 24 ILD and 14 ILD latex. Read for a little while (after feeding the cat), and then went back to sleep for a couple hours.

I might have just re-introduced the sinkhole -- can't tell after just a couple of hours. Pretty sure I put back too much soft stuff, though. Might have to change that again.

The company I bought this mattress from is having a half-price sale (ending today). I'm tempted to go in there and just start over. A lot of their beds use PU foam, but they do have one mattress that's just a 6" Dunlop core, with a wool and cotton quilted panel. Probably not a good idea, though, until I figure out what's wrong with this mattress and how to fix it. Otherwise, I'd probably wind up going through this whole thing again, 'cause I'd still have to figure out the right toppers for a comfort layer. If I can ever get that figured out, then it almost won't matter whether they're on a latex core or an innerspring -- unless, of course, I turn out to be one of those people who can't get enough back support from latex, in which case there'd be yet another expensive mistake. (Between the latex I've bought recently and the medium-firm Overstock 2" Dunlop topper that I brought down from the attic to check out, I've almost got enough latex to skip the springs entirely and build my own latex mattress.)

The last 2 or 3 years that I had my old mattress (we're talking 18-year-old mattress), it was really uncomfortable, and I'd wake up with numb arms & hands, and I could feel the coils. I am now wondering how I managed to tolerate that for so long. Maybe there are things I could handle in my mid-40s that I am not quite as willing to tolerate now.

Something else that puzzles me: For a period of at least several months, I was fine with using just my old thin fiber-pad, the 1" of 24 ILD Talatech, and the 2" med.-firm Dunlop topper over my mattress. That same combo now feels too firm. No idea why.

Anyway... Happy New Year, everybody. I hope we all figure out this mattress thing so we can sleep well and spend our precious time & energy on other matters.

My shoulders & hips were throbbing because the mattress was way too firm (that's why I finally got up and changed everything at 6:30 AM). There was no sinkhole -- the reason I did the surgery -- but there was no pressure relief, either, even with 2" of 14 ILD latex as the top layer, over 1" 24 ILD, 1" 27 ILD, and 1" FBM (guessing 28-30 ILD).

When I got up and changed everything, I put a bunch of soft stuff back on the mattress, just to get a few hours of cushioned sleep. I'm pretty sure it was too much soft stuff, though. Not sure what I'm going to try tonight. Wish I had something between 14 and 24 ILD.

Sandman, do you still use that 1" 4lb "mem-cool" memory foam from Overstock, or did you decide that it was too soft and interfered with support? (I know you have the 5.3lb memory foam from FoamOrder.com; can't remember what you thought of the mem-cool stuff.)

It seems that you are now getting the support, and now need to focus on comfort.  Of course there is a trade off between the two.  I am a little surprised because you have a fair amount of foam on top.  Do you think the 14 is really 14?

I bought a 2" piece of memory foam from Costco recently for a spare bed.  It seems like a pretty good value (and returnable), but I am not totally sure of performance because I don't sleep on it. 

I got it directly from the mattress manufacturer. They use it in the top layer of some of their latex mattresses, and call it "super soft Talalay latex 14 ILD." I have no reason to doubt them. It certainly feels ridiculously soft, and it's very fragile. I think it's too soft, and I just bottom out on it.

(Were you thinking that the 14 is actually a lower ILD? I'm pretty sure it's not higher; it's worlds apart from the 24 ILD I have.)

I might call the local foam wholesaler this week and see what they have in the way of memory foam. I know they carry some; just don't know what density and whether I can get just an inch of it.

I think tonight's trial is going to be 1" 14, 1" 24, 1" N3/27 ILD; then the quilted mattress panel; and below that, the 1" FBM (est. 28-30 ILD?), over the dacron & Novabond fiber & springs. The FBM latex is pretty dense, but the N3 and 24 ILD toppers from SLAB are very resilient and do not feel overly firm.

The soreness in my shoulders & hips was much worse last night than the night before; I wonder if some of that came from rotating the mattress. (I'm leaving it in its current rotation spot for now.)
 

Trying it seemed like a good idea at the time -- they were calling it 14-17 ILD when I bought it; I wanted to support a local independent business; and it was much cheaper than SLAB's products.

Of course, everything I've tried has seemed like a good idea at the time (with the possible exception of the mattress surgery).

"Since it is quilted into the top, you may have to completely remove that as well."

Almost certainly will.

"Another factor is the fact that it is two sided."

Huge factor.  Anything between the springs & solid foundation will affect their performance.  

Yep, decided that this morning, when I woke up with that same lower-back pain. Has to be coming from the quilted top panel, since that's the only thing I added to the setup last night. (Didn't use the fiber-bed, and used only 1" of the 14 ILD latex.)

As for the stuff on the bottom of the mattress, not sure what I can do about that. I don't particularly want to cut open the bottom of this thing, too, or yank everything out of the mattress encasement.

(If I did yank everything out of the encasement, what would I put the spring structure in? And would I need a piece of hard foam on the bottom?)

Is it worth even continuing to work on this thing, given that there's 2" of poly foam on the bottom (under the springs) and I can't tell if the coils are still good? Would it be better to cut my losses and start over with something else? I s'pose I won't know if the coils conform the way they're supposed to unless I detach that Novabond pad; hmmmm.....

This project is driving me nuts, I'm very frustrated and not sure I'm making any progress, and I've got so much else that needs to be done. I think I'd cut my losses right now if I knew what kind of mattress to try next. I even inquired about prices at Baybed.com -- the mattress manufacturer in CA that makes pocket-coil-and-latex mattresses with a zipper cover. (Shipping to NY would be $250.) I'd at least know that the coils are good. (Sorry for whining; I'm tired.)

Regarding memory foam: I called the local foam wholesaler. I could get a 2" 5.5lb "Tempurpedic quality" memory foam topper, but it would cost $285. Yowsa. I can get 2" of 5lb memory foam from FBM for $98.  The local wholesaler doesn't offer anything less than 2" thick on memory foam. I'd prefer to try an inch at a time (and I'm not shelling out nearly $300 for that), but I might pop over there sometime this week just to try the stuff out and see what it feels like.

Well, Jason, you might get to say "I told you so" (or "Fixed It For You" again).

The sinkhole is coming back -- and this is after I rotated the mattress (a couple days ago) and cut off the top quilted panel (yesterday). Measured it this time, this morning, by laying a yardstick across the bed and holding a ruler up at the deepest part of the dip, and there's a 3/8" gap. Not a huge crater, but enough to cause lower back pain.

So, either the coils have crapped out, or the foam on the bottom of the mattress has crapped out. If it's the 2" of PU foam on the bottom (1" of which is quilted into the mattress case), then the springs will have to be extracted.

Extracting the springs raises several questions, like: What do I put this thing in? How do I maintain edge support? And do I need to put a piece of plywood over the entire foundation?

(Ooohh, actually, I have an idea that might let me keep the case in a usable condition... but it'll take a while to do, and I might still lose edge support, though I don't know if that's really all that important.)

Also, I'm wondering if the Novabond fiber mat that's on top of the springs interferes with the springs' ability to conform. If so, then building a mattress with that stuff kinda defeats the purpose of using open offset coils, which are supposed to be fairly conforming, from what I've read.

This is all rather confusing....

If it is the springs, then you are getting to the point of throwing good money after bad.  I assume the new foam you are using is high quality and not the source of the problem, but hard for an outsider to be sure about that.

Yeah, I didn't realize that when I started. I might have opted to just ditch the mattress and start over with a new one if I'd known that operating on a two-sided mattress was going to be more complicated. Guess I'm taking one for the team here. 

I'm still amazed that this thing can be developing sinkholes so quickly, with so little foam, and I'm amazed that relatively small dips can create so much back pain.

I'm trying not to spend much more dough on this -- because of throwing good money after bad -- but I seem still to be in Nothing Left To Lose (Except Time) territory. So I might as well go a little farther and see if I can figure out (a) whether the coils are OK, and (b) whether removing the Novabond fiber mat lets the coils conform to me better. The sheet of dacron might be enough over the coils, or the local foam wholesaler might have something appropriate (& cheap).

What I have in mind is to detach the sides of the case from the springs (and the small piece of foam surrounding the springs on the sides) so that I can lift out the spring structure. Then remove the bottom piece of convoluted foam. With all the quilting in the bottom cover, there's no easy way to get the foam out of it, but I might be able to just flatten it with something (plywood or luon [luan?]) and then put the spring structure back inside the case. That would remove all the PU foam as a variable and still leave me with a usable case (sides & bottom).

The latex from SLAB is in good shape, and the latex from FBM seems decent. The only questionable latex is the 14ILD stuff, but I'm not using more than 1" of it now, and I bottom out on it, so it's probably not much of a factor.

I need to figure out whether the coils are good before I start buying memory foam or more latex. If they're not, I'll need to decide whether to get a latex or high-density PU foam core or buy a one-sided innerspring, knowing that I'll be doing surgery again very soon. In either situation, I can still use the latex I've got.

Adventurous, foolhardy -- tomato, tomah-to...

The spring structure has been freed from the mattress case -- wasn't that hard to do -- but I just put it back in there temporarily because I want to deal with the Novabond mat before going any further.

Have to wonder if people reading this thread think I'm the most fickle person on the planet: This topper is going to work... No, it's not. // Hmmm.... This other topper is going to work.... Darn; nope. // I need something firmer.... No, I need something softer.... No, this is too soft now. // Um, zoning is going to work... Nope, not that either. // I don't wanna do mattress surgery yet.... OK, I'm doing mattress surgery. // Maybe I'll use some memory foam.... Nah, not yet. // I don't wanna take off the fiber mat.... OK, I'm taking off the fiber mat....
 

I'm going to get some dinner and then continue with this madness... I mean... endeavor. (It's anyone's guess what I'll be sleeping on tonight -- could be the couch.)

Not at all! After spending 18 years on one mattress that was basically a board with springs by the time I decided it had to go, I turned into the new version of The "Princess and the Pea" with my mattress purchase. I found that what was suitable for my young body all those years ago just wouldn't do anymore.

I spent over a month trying out a mattress, returning it, buying foams and toppers, configuring and reconfiguring them to try and make it just right. I knew I had it right the morning I got up with zero pain from a back injury and was able to bend down and put my shoes on without a half hour of warming up first.

I hope you find your mattress Nirvana too!

Thanks, Doreen; I appreciate that. I'm feeling rather Princess-and-the-Pea-ish, too, now. And I also used my previous mattress for 18 years.

I've got the convoluted foam off the bottom of the mattress; the mattress back in its case, with a board under the hip area (between the springs & case -- although I think I left the dacron in there); the Novabond fiber mat & dacron off the top of the mattress; an old thin mattress pad spread out over the springs; and the latex & sheets back on the bed.

And I'm whupped. Wrestling with this mattress has been a challenge. And getting the spring structure out of the case turned out to be much easier than putting it back in. (Not surprising, I guess.)

I still don't know how to tell if the springs are good. I don't see any huge dips, but that might not mean anything. Anyone got any hints on that?

The coil count turns out to be 522 (18 across, 29 down) -- so much for the 660 I was told when I bought it. Someone got mixed up. Could have been me, of course, but I'm pretty obsessive & careful about my research -- shocking, I know -- and I took notes in the store. (If I remember correctly, the store's website did not list specs at the time. I do know that their site was completely redesigned sometime after I bought my mattress.)

According to Leggett & Platt, the Lura-Flex coil count options (PDF) for full-size mattresses are 522, 580, and 660. Hmmm....

Glad you finally found something that works for you. I'm afraid I might have cut this mattress up for nothing. The best lesson here might be: If you plan to do mattress surgery someday, do *not* get a double-sided mattress.

I'm not feeling optimistic about this -- my spine still doesn't look straight when I lie on the mattress (with or without latex on it) -- but we'll see how things go.

I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much from the coils. Should the Lura-flex offset coils be flexible and conforming enough to keep my spine aligned, or is that not a realistic expectation for someone with an hourglass figure? Does anyone know?

Going to go fall into bed now (what's left of it)....

(Fixed only by restoring the context of "certain the mattress itself is not the problem" in the quote, since I was implying the opposite)

For edge support I put multiple vertical strips of polyethylene foam around the springs, replacing only the walls of that foam box (also polyethylene) your springs are currently in.  You could cut the bottom out of that, & use only the sides of that thing too.  I just didn't want to save anything that wasn't steel.  Either way keep it only around the edges, not underneath.   I used the blue camping mats from wal mart (the shiny $5 hard ones in a roll, in the camping section are polyethylene, not the soft blue ones in the yoga section) to a little under the height of the springs.  Depending on your springs, you can also slide one of these strips, vertically, just inside each of the outermost rows of springs along all four edges, inside the unit itself.

You can put the entire thing in any thin mattress encasement. My springs sit directly on slats, but plywood probably wouldn't be z problem either.  If you're worried about your springs' performance, put on old clothes (they might get snagged), & lay down directly on them.  You can tell right away if they're all just all mashing down together underneath you, or actually conforming like you know they should.  Now the goal is to just add as little as is required to relieve pressure, without dampening that conforming action of your springs.  If you were a back sleeper, <2" of firm latex would do it.  Side sleepers will need something thicker & softer.  But every layer of pads, foam, & casing you add puts you that much further removed from what your springs are doing for you.  I've found less is more.

Something else to think about- just shuffling around all these foams & springs in & out of cases, on & off your bed, can wreck that night's sleep regardless of what you're sleeping on, if you don't take precautions.  No joke, treat it as an athletic event- stretch before & after, move purposefully, don't get caught in an awkward position while holding anything heavy, & get someone to help, or do it for you if possible.  Even changing sheets one too many times if you're bending awkwardly can strain.

 I'm convinced a lot of members here don't end up giving some their new setups a fair chance, because they've unknowingly strained their backs in the process of setting it up, then feel it that  night.   Many of here already have back/muscle/nerve problems.  We didn't seek this forum  out because we can sleep on just anything.  There's probably a reason for that.  Have to pay attention to our sensitivities.  

Thanks very much for the info about using strips of hard camping mats to go around the edges of the springs. That is a creative idea.

My springs weren't wrapped in any sort of polyethylene foam box. They were just covered with convoluted PU foam -- one sheet each on top & bottom -- that was wrapped only a few inches down the sides. (Directly above the springs were the Novabond mats & dacron sheets; then the foam; then the quilted top & bottom panels.)

I'm not convinced that these coils are still good -- my hips were sinking down too far last night. And there was a plywood board across the hip area, below the springs/dacron/Novabond and the quilted bottom. [I keep editing this paragraph because I keep checking things on the springs, and one time I check, I think the springs can't go downward anymore, because of the board, and another time I check, I think maybe they are going down a smidge. Hard to tell from on top of the springs.]

Well, they do sort of mash down, but they're springs -- they're supposed to compress -- so I don't know how to tell whether they're compressing more than they should.

I did notice much less pressure on my shoulders, so I think removing the dacron & Novabond from the top of the springs did free up the coils to do their thing better. (Which, again, makes me wonder why those pads were put there in the first place. If you wanted to sell a firm mattress, wouldn't you be better off using different springs and a lower-gauge wire, instead of using open offset coils and a higher-gauge wire and then dampening them with fiber mats?)

I tried to be careful moving the mattress around, but sometimes getting caught in an awkward position is inevitable with heavy things. (The spring structure is not all that heavy; it's just awkward to handle because of its size.) Generally, I do not have lower back pain *unless* it's been caused by the mattress.

I would try it with even less foam.    Maybe take of the 14.  Possibly only 2" of firm latex. Remove whatever you can out of the bottom and leave as thin of a piece over the coils as possible.  I assume you are not using the quilted top any more?   If so, that has to go as well.  If you still think you are sinking in too much, then it is either the coils or the quilted bottom.   

Do you know what size mattress that 620 coil count is for on the Sealy Posturepedic? (Twin, Full, Queen...?)

That is interesting that you noticed a big difference in support between the top-of-the-line Sealy mattress and the middle-of-the-line one.

The coils in my mattress are 14.5 gauge.

I'll take off the 1" of 14 ILD. The top quilted panel is gone. The bottom one is still there, but I've got a plywood board between it and the springs, in the hip area, so I can't imagine that the panel would still be much of a factor.

620 14 gauge is the full size.  This is in their more expensive ones.  I am sure they have ones with less.  Approximately what did you pay for yours?

 

Thanks, Sandman. I paid about $750 for the mattress & foundation in July of 2009.

I will take the springs out of the case again and take out that last sheet of dacron, and try this one more time.

The Novabond mat attached to the springs on the bottom is too thin to be a factor (it's a very dense 1/8" at most), but even with the plywood I've got in there, maybe the dacron and the bottom quilted panel are still a problem somehow. If using the springs without the case and without the dacron doesn't solve the problem, then I think I'm back to Square One (i.e., new mattress).

And when I lie on this thing -- both with and without the latex on it -- my hips still sink in too far; I can feel a kink in my spine, and see it in the mirror setup. I put my yoga mat across the hip area (a couple inches down in the latex layers) to try to stop the sinking. We'll see if that does enough, but I suspect that it will not.

If it doesn't, I think the only conclusion is that the coils just do not provide enough support for me. That might not mean the coils are worn out -- might just mean they're not the right kind for me (which confuses me, because the first year on the mattress was good) -- but if I can't get even close to proper spinal alignment with these coils, then fiddling with toppers is not going to help.

I thought the whole point of the innerspring coils was to provide support, so I'm not a happy camper right now.

I know the coils are going to compress some, 'cause that's how they work, but shouldn't they also be... you know... springing? (By which I mean: Shouldn't they be pushing back up, to provide the elusive support and keep me aloft, rather than continuing to compress and letting me sink in so far?) Or am I misunderstanding something fundamental here?

Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised in the morning and won't wake up in a sinkhole.... That would be lovely.

On a side note: I had to go to an Urgent Care center this afternoon to get a gash in my hand looked at, cleaned out, and bandaged and get a tetanus shot.* The nurse who took care of me is getting ready to open up her mattress, too, and it's only 3 years old. She couldn't remember the model name just then, but said it was an expensive mattress -- and it's been killing her back. Seemed like a (sort of) funny coincidence.

* Guess who cut herself with the razor-blade tool while cutting foam off the mattress? I was taking a very short break from work, cutting some foam, and the tool slipped, so I wound up spending the next hour or so trying to stop the bleeding, and finally called my doctor's office and got sent to an Urgent Care center, where I was very well taken care of. Wonderful people there, and soooo much better than sitting around in an emergency room. (The nurse and I also both had horror stories about overcrowded ER's, so Yay for these Urgent Care centers, and Yay for Eastside Medical in particular.) 

Wow foam is serious business.  I hope you're okay.

"Well, they do sort of mash down, but they're springs -- they're supposed to compress -- so I don't know how to tell whether they're compressing more than they should."

They are if your hips sink too far without any foam on them, in which case no amount of foam on top can really fix that without compromising their action.  When I lay directly on my springs, I stay flat, at the top. They just barely compress enough under my hips & shoulders for the coils in between those two points to hit the arch of my back.  If your hips are still sinking with that little latex on top, I don't know where to go from there.  I don't know that this is the case with yours, but I have tried mattresses, new, that were already sinking in too much like that for me. I could feel them compress too far even through the comfort layers.  They were 5xx coils, but serta.

"I did notice much less pressure on my shoulders, so I think removing the dacron & Novabond from the top of the springs did free up the coils to do their thing better. (Which, again, makes me wonder why those pads were put there in the first place. If you wanted to sell a firm mattress, wouldn't you be better off using different springs and a lower-gauge wire, instead of using open offset coils and a higher-gauge wire and then dampening them with fiber mats?)"

Seems that way to me.  I wish that's how they were made, I just know they don't work for me as is. 
 

It sounds like your springs don't give enough support. Could be the quantity and gauge or it could be the quality of the steel.  I think it is unusual to go bad in 2.5 years, so that is a bit puzzling.  All I can say is that when I lay directly on mine, they feel plenty firm.  I definitely don't have a feeling of sinking in too much.  Of course you have to sink in some, that is the point. 

It is hard for someone outside to evaluate your situation, so you have to use your best judgement.  Not sure what to recommend at this point, but if the coils don't give enough support, you pretty much have to get a new mattress.  Give a try though, before jumping to a conclusion. 

I'm OK; thanks. Some throbbing, but it'll subside, and I've got a pressure bandage on that will stay on until Friday morning. And the doc said the scar would just be a thin line, so that's good.
 

So you've done mattress surgery twice, right? What springs have you found that work for you? And do you sleep on your back or side? (Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.)

Yeah, both were mid tier posturepedics.  One a full, 600 coils, whose perimeter I built out with stacks of vertical rails made of that polyethylene foam to accommodate queen size toppers.  The other was already a queen, with a similar coil density (six sixty, or six seventy something).

I try to sleep on my back exclusively, but do occasionally find myself on my side.  If I wake up on my side on the spare, I'll have a tingling shoulder- too thin & firm a topper for my side.  great for back & stomach though.  No problems either way on mine, which has much thicker & softer latex.  That one's good for side & back, probably not so much for stomach.  Definitely overkill, but I'm not going to mess with it until it quits working for me.  And not that it will have any bearing on your situation, but I'll try to get a more accurate description/measurement of how far I sink into just the springs today.

So, not to rag on the manufacturer of my mattress, but I just looked at the specs on another one of their mattresses, and all I can think is: "Why?"

It's a similar deal to what I mentioned above, but this one I just looked at is called "Ultra Firm: Deluxe Firm Pocket Coil." Um... isn't that a contradiction in terms? Aren't pocket coils designed and marketed specifically for their ability to conform to the sleeper's body? If so... why would you put that same Novabond mat and dacron pad over those springs? This makes no sense to me. Want an ultra-firm mattress? Use a Bonnel coil or something like that, and a dense Novabond mat & the dacron pad. Want a more conforming mattress? Use pocket coils, and put something thin & flexible over the coils.  Am I missing something here? (The specs also say "720 Luraflex, 14 gauge pocketed coil unit." As far as I know, Luraflex is the open-offset coil design from L+P, not a pocket coil. Hmph.)

(Yeah, someone got up on the wrong side of the [uncomfortable] bed this morning.... )

The LuraFlex offset coils are marketed as being both conforming and supportive, I believe -- but they seem to be neither of those things for me.   (Maybe they would be in a lower-gauge steel? Maybe pocket coils can be more supportive in a lower-gauge steel? I'd like to understand this stuff but I don't have time to get an engineering degree....)

sandman wrote:

Yikes. Lots of that going around...

Yes, I'm puzzled. I can't quite see how the springs could go bad so quickly, so maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the mechanics of this stuff to know what is reasonable support & compression and what is not. The springs definitely do not seem to be supportive enough for me, though, for whatever reason.

I'm going to try stretching that Novabond mat back over the springs again, but just over the hip region to try to dampen the spring action in that area.

No matter what I do, I cannot make this mattress work -- with or without the case, with or without toppers, with or without zoning.

I don't understand why the mattress worked fine with a couple of toppers for the first year or so and doesn't work now under any circumstances, but I guess it will remain a mystery. Maybe the springs are fine, maybe they're shot; I just don't know. Seems like I tore apart a $700 mattress for nothing.

I've wasted time & money, my bedroom is full of mattress parts and latex toppers, my hands have a bunch of nicks from the springs and a gouge from the razor-tool, and I still don't have a comfortable bed. What I do have is back pain *caused* by my bed.

I can be a very analytical and methodical problem-solver, so it bugs the crap out of me that I can't figure out why this thing doesn't work or how to fix it... but I can't. Time to cut my losses.

Getting a firm mattress and buying toppers seemed like a good idea, but didn't work for me (after the first year). Or maybe it would have worked if the mattress had turned out actually to be as firm as I thought it was -- but who knows? (Not me, clearly!)

Getting a double-sided mattress didn't help, either, but just complicated the mattress surgery by adding variables, so I don't plan to do that again. It's just one more thing that seemed logical at the time....

On the bright side, I'm now up-to-date on my tetanus shot.
 

--------

I'm open to suggestions on what to try next. Pocket coils, for something more conforming? Or low-gauge Bonnell coils for serious firmness?

I have no idea. I'd still prefer an innerspring, rather than all foam (latex or otherwise), if I can find a spring system that works for me.

I also have no idea where to buy a mattress next, because even the local manufacturer is building goofy things with illogical (to me) configurations and the same PU foam that all the big companies use. I could ask them to build me a custom mattress, but that would probably be more expensive and, more to the point, I don't even know which components to ask for, so that doesn't seem like a great idea, either.

Phooey.

I'm sleeping on the couch tonight.

Suggestions for pocketed coils?  Yeah but it's a long shot.  Those multistrand wire coils in beautyrest-black mattresses are incredible.  Though finding a demo or someone trying to get rid one of those for cheap on craigslist or something is tough (am constantly looking), & way too expensive to buy new just for the springs.  Not so much with posturepedics, they're cheap and common. 

If you start running low on budgeted time & cash to experiment with, considering so much in mattresses & components are non returnable & too expensive to justify disposable experiments, you could try no risk/hassle finished products at the big box stores that have liberal return policies with no restocking/shipping penalties.  No fear of the suddenly quit working after a few months phenomenon- I once made a return at the very end of the 1 year window with no problem at sams.  They have a 5lb memory foam over 2lb PU foam (3" + 8") mattresses there, & costco has 759 coil ultrafirm sealy posturepedics, either for <$800/queen set.  Just throwing low hassle ideas out there for future consideration, because I wouldn't do anything out of frustration before completely ruling out what you're working with now.  It sounds like you're patience is wearing thin at this point though.

Really want a set of those.  Wish you could buy coils alone, but I've tried a few (US) component manufacturers both small & large, & it's hard enough to get a rep to even return my calls.  They just don't want to sell a set of coils or two to an individual.

Kind of hard to show, & not sure this is even necessarily proper, but I think mine are barely compressing an inch under my hips & shoulders, then not much at all elsewhere.  I pretty much stay on the top.  If yours aren't mashing down too much more than this, I doubt they're the problem, & definitely wouldn't give up on them yet.  If they have been supportive for you all this time, I doubt they could have degraded too much in just a couple of years.

I can only guess that they use a fairly soft coil system.  If they lied about the coil count, maybe the gauge is not what they said either.   Possibly the matting provided some support until it started to wear down.

Hard to say where to go from here.   You may want to put your toppers directly on the foundation to see how that feels.   You probably don't have enougth depth, but if you added 3" of base support you might have a decent latex/foam mattress.    Is there a reason you want an innerspring?

I think a high quality pocketed coil system is probably best for side sleepers.  However, that would probably be pretty expensive, unless you find something used.   It is hard to find anything reasonably priced that only uses good materials.  As always, to a certain extent you get what you pay for. That is why some of us ended up doing surgery out of desperation.  Certainly it is not the ideal solution. 

In my experience, the upper end Sealy Posterpedic coils provide plenty of support.   I would not say that they conform to the body of a side sleeper the best,   I have compensated by using 5" of foam above.  So, the coils end up working like a mix between a box spring and a mattress.

It would be nice is someone made a high quality innserspring with a zipper top, so it could be customized.   Not aware of any though. 

Not particularly. I just couldn't take another night on the mattress, and the couch was the only available surface other than the floor.
 

JasonRatky wrote:

Thanks for the measurements & pics; very interesting.

My springs, uncompressed, are about 5.5" high. I tried to measure how deep I sink, and it's awkward to do, so I might be off a little, but when I'm lying on my side, it looks like the lowest part of my hip sinks down about 2.5" -- in other words, it looks like the top part of the compressed springs there is at the 3" mark on the ruler.

It's hard to tell from a somewhat contorted angle, though; I'd have to have a friend measure to be sure.

sandman wrote:

I can't even tell anymore.

sandman wrote:

It looks like the springs get pushed both downward and inward (rather than outward) when I'm on the mattress. The spring structure does have some edge support built in, and there are the helicals going across, but without the whole mattress case keeping everything together, there seems to be more room for the springs to move around, sideways as well as down. I'm sure that's not helping matters.

sandman wrote:

I don't think anyone lied, and I don't want to disparage this company's reputation. I think the company is an honest one, and someone -- possibly me -- got mixed up.

I think the company is making some odd configuration decisions, and I think it doesn't quite have its act together in some ways (as evidenced in the print & Web materials I've seen, and maybe in some inefficient computer systems leading to some disorganization & confusion), but I don't think anyone that I encountered there is dishonest. Everyone I've talked to, both in 2009 and recently, has seemed straightforward and been helpful. Just want to be clear about that.

sandman wrote:

That is what I will try next, since I have so much latex here. (I'll try it first without adding more base support, to see how it feels. I'll use the old medium-firm Overstock Dunlop topper as the base for now.)

I'm thinking that I'd still prefer an innerspring because I'm used to innersprings and this is the first time I've had so much trouble with one that was still relatively new. And I'd love it if the innerspring provided the proper support and spinal alignment so that I wouldn't need to mess around with trying to zone the latex. But we'll see.

sandman wrote:

I don't know how good the innerspring units are, but Bay Bed & Mattress in CA sells innerspring mattresses that use latex on top and are enclosed in zippered cases. It'd cost a bit to have them ship a mattress to me, but they do ship out of state.

Thanks for the help, guys. Much appreciated. I'm pretty tired of banging my head against the wall trying to figure this thing out, and I have spent way more time on this than I can afford.

I vaguely recall Budgy at one point saying that the wires that connect the coils can be a weak link in the mattress.  I don't remember why, but maybe they can stretch out or loosen up (or both).  Especially if they are no thick enough or fastened well.  That reduces the overall support because the surrounding coils are not helping as much.  Just thought I would throw that out because your coils seems to be shifting more than I would expect.  The fact that you had to remove the whole coils system probably did not help either.   It is likely that there was no solution, but that is just a guess.

2.5" of sinking in does not seem like a whole lot, but that is almost 50% compression.  That definitely seems like more than Jason or I experience, and we weigh more that you (at least I do).  

I don't know how to judge what's proper compression and what's too much. I weigh less than you guys but have relatively wider hips, so... hard to know if that balances things out or not. Maybe my hips should sink in that much to accommodate the gap between waist & hips; but something just isn't working. Maybe the shoulder area is the problem.

Edited to add:
The photo of the woman lying on her side on the springs on this page from Royal-Pedic.com shows the support/alignment I'm looking for from the springs. (Maybe not a great photo, but you get the general idea. Similar photo at L&P's page on pocket coils.) I'm not getting that from my offset coils.

When I lie on my side on my springs -- with zero foam, quilting, etc., below the spring structure -- there's a pronounced curve in my spine. And my spine is generally fairly straight, no scoliosis, no disc problems, etc. (I laid a board vertically under the mattress to make sure that the foundation wasn't a factor, since it's not solid.)

At this point, I'm so turned around from all the experiments that I can't even tell for sure in which direction I'm out of alignment -- sometimes I think my shoulders aren't sinking in enough, and sometimes I think my shoulders are sinking in too much. (The bottom shoulder, on my side, feels crunched. If I push down on my bottom shoulder to raise myself up, then my spine finally straightens. I'm not sure how to interpret that.)  Either way, I am out of alignment on those coils. Which would make the search for toppers rather fruitless, I'd think.

I wonder if the LuraFlex open offset coils just don't work well for a skinny chick with an hourglass bone structure. Maybe the helicals get in the way? I have no clue.

My old mattress cost $300 in 1991, and I slept on it for 18 years, through my 30s and most of my 40s. It was uncomfortable for the last several years (I could feel the coils, and I woke up with numb or tingling arms & hands), but before that, I think it was fine. I don't remember it causing any back pain. It was probably a Bonnell-coil mattress, and it was on top of a real box spring.

So this makes me wonder more about the best coils for me: low-gauge Bonnell for firmness, or pocket coils for their ability to conform to the body? Sure wish there was some way other than endless trial & error to figure these things out.

I think Budgy needs to write a "Mattress Construction & Buying for Dummies" book. He can sell it to manufacturers and customers.

At any rate, I am done with this mattress. I've got 5" of latex on the foundation now, all of it medium or medium-firm.

I'm leaving off all the 14ILD stuff for now, athough I'm wondering if I could artificially firm it up by putting it in the heavy-duty cotton non-stretchy topper-cover I have from FBM (got it a couple years ago to use with the Overstock Dunlop topper).

When I look at that Royalpedic picture, it looks like she is sinking in at least 2" at the hip area and compressing the coils about 1/3.  If you are sinking in 2.5", that does not seem that different.  Are your shoulders not sinking in enough?  Some of the mattresses make the midsection firmer, so maybe that is what you want in order to get better alignment.

That might be the problem; I'm not sure.

When I'm on my side, the bottom shoulder feels crunched. If I push down on my bottom shoulder to raise myself up, then my spine straightens. 

I'm wondering if the springs -- even if they're in relatively decent condition overall -- could have started to wear down unevenly, since the mattress was resting on what is essentially a slatted foundation, not a real box spring. Dunno; just a thought.

The problem might just be that these offset coils are not the right kind of coils for me, and either pocket coils or old-fashioned Bonnell would be better.

The L&P 3-zone "Body Print" pocket-coil system uses 15.5-gauge wire for the top & bottom thirds of the mattress, and 15-gauge wire for the middle third. I don't know if that's enough of a difference to matter, and I don't know if 15-gauge would be too thin a wire to be durable. But it looks like Gardner Mattress uses these springs, and my impression from what I've read here is that Gardner makes good mattresses, so maybe these springs would be OK. (I don't live anywhere near Gardner; just using them as an example.)

No idea if the pocket coils in Simmons or Sealy mattresses are any good. (Never mind the rest of the junk in those; I'm just wondering about the coils themselves.)

Hard to say if that section is more worn out.   It will wear out faster because of the greater weight on it, but 2.5 years would be pretty quick.  If the wires holding the coils together are substandard (too thin or bad metal) or not fastened well, then when they go bad you would lose support from the surrounding coils as well.    Do the center of the coils feel softer than the head and feet?  

Are you sleeping on just the foam?  How is that working out?

Seems to be a common problem on this forum, anyway.
 

I thought they did, but I'm not sure I can trust my perceptions about these coils at this point.

I couldn't stand having mattress parts & foam layers filling up my bedroom, so this weekend I finally put the mattress back into its case and shoved it under my bed, just to get it out of my way for now.
 

I am. It's not the most comfortable -- I have some lower back pain, so if I stick with all foam (latex or otherwise), I might still need some zoning.

Hope not, though. I have no time to mess with zoning right now; I have to get back to the projects I was neglecting all the time I was fiddling with that mattress & toppers. (I think I'd try an inch or two of 5lb memory foam before trying the zoning again.)

I need to get some plywood to completely cover the foundation, so the slats are out of the equation altogether. Then I'll need to either try another innerspring or get some HR foam to use as a temporary base. (I don't think I want to spend the dough for an all-latex mattress right now... but I reserve the right to change my mind .)

Those latex mattresses are heavy, especially the Dunlop ones, and if I go this route -- doubtful, but possible -- I'd get Dunlop cores.

I'm using my grandparents' old bed frame -- your basic hardwood frame with wooden rails and slats (used to have just 4 slats but I added 4 more). It's a full/double, so no center rail. I don't know how old the frame is, but I'm 50, and my grandparents used it for years, so... just wondering. I think it's well made and holding up well, but it was designed to hold a boxspring & an innerspring mattress (+ people), not heavy slabs of latex (+ people). Maybe an old-fashioned box spring, with real coils, + old-fashioned low-gauge innerspring would be near the equivalent weight of a wooden foundation (no coils) + latex mattress?

Thanks.

You  might be better putting a foundation on it.   You can see how many slats a Flobeds foundation has.    Plus the slats are attached to the sides of the foundation which will help keep them from dipping down.  Adding more slats might help, but I think with enough weight they will still dip down (since they are not attached they can pull away from the sides an bend), and that seems to be an issue for you already.  Of course the more slats you have and the thicker they are, the less dipping you will get. 
 

I was thinking of using my current wooden foundation (the one that came with my innerspring) but putting a sheet of plywood over it to add stability and help prevent dipping.

Don't know if that would be enough, or if I'd still need to rig up some sort of center rail that could still be unscrewed when the bed frame needs to be taken apart for moving.

Since I've got 5" of medium to medium-firm latex here (1" 24 ILD Talatech, 1" N3/27 ILD, 1" FBM 20 [more like 28-30 ILD], and 2" med.-firm Dunlop), I might be able to add a 3" firm Dunlop base and have a good start there. 

The 2" Dunlop that I have is the Overstock topper that I had stopped using because I thought it was cratering (assumed it was cheap synthetic stuff). I don't see evidence of cratering in it now, but I've been using it for only a few nights, so at this point, I don't know whether it will crater eventually or whether it was actually the mattress under it that was cratering before. Either way, it's useful right now. 

If the curent slats are dipping, then you'll need to replace them and add a center brace. If the current slats are straight, I'd add as many additional slats as you can keeping a maximum distance of 2.5" between each one. I know there's plenty of debate as to whether or not latex needs to breath. I could not find anything other than some people's opinions as to whether or not this is true, but decided myself to err on the side of caution and stick with slats rather than plywood. My Home Depot sells 1x3s (actual size - 3/4" x 2.5") in untreated yellow pine for less than $2 per 8' board. If you add 12 sticks, you looking at less than $25 worth of wood. If you don't have a saw, you can even get them to cut it for you for something like $0.50 a cut.

I don't think they're dipping, but I'd have to get under the bed with a flashlight to check, I guess.

Thanks for the suggestion. Home Depot is where I got the extra slats a couple years ago; I have a hand saw, but had HD cut the lumber for me (faster & easier). Still have a couple extra slats in the basement.

If I go the foam route, I'd prefer a solid base under it, but need to have a sense of whether this old frame could handle the weight. (I know no one can tell me without actually seeing the thing.) It's held up this long, so it could well hold up another 50 years. The dressers have certainly lasted well.
 

Same here.  

Either way I'd bet an old solid wood frame is sturdy enough for whatever you stack on it.  

Thanks, Jason (and thanks, megalops).
 

I've been saying my foundation is wooden, but I guess it does have some steel in it, too. It's the Leggett & Platt "Semi-Flex limited deflection" unit.

Relevant links if anyone's interested (these things come with a lot of mattresses now):

L&P Semi-Flex Web page (a little info)

L&P Semi-Flex PDF (details about the semi-flex foundation)

I am spending entirely too much time pondering mattress components and options....

----------------------------------
Edited the next morning to add:
Whatever this foundation is made of, I'm feeling the slats on it through 5" of medium latex + my old thin fiberbed. [Correction: I'm feeling the metal grid. Youch. The wooden slats are just supporting the metal grid. I should have looked at the L&P PDF more carefully.]   Yesterday morning wasn't bad, but today I woke up feeling like I've been pummeled. I might be back on the couch tonight. And/or I might have to get a few inches of inexpensive high-density PU foam, just to buy myself some time.

I am also obsessed with finding the right mattress, but have a few comments;

Do not put a solid piece of plywood under your mattress - it won't breathe and can mold. 

I would try the old foundation, but make certain the slats are spaced and secure.

I bought a metal bed with a really cheesy set of supports, that I think was sagging and causing back pain.   

So I replaced it with plywood, supported by 2x4s - seriously sturdy.   Of course, as you point out, I had to address moisture issues.    So I got a spade bit and drilled at least a hundred 1+" holes in it.   I *think* it's enough, haven't noticed any moisture, or seen any mold, on the bottom of my foam.   I keep thinking I should drill more sometime ...

I've thought about doing that -- or just getting some pegboard, if that's sturdy enough. (I think it would be, since it'd be resting on top of my foundation, not directly on the bed frame). I'd probably put it under a sheet or inside my allergen casing or something, so it's not directly under the mattress.

Gonna check the bed-frame slats next and then get back to work....Well, what do you know... got me some dips there.* (I flipped the dipping slats over.)

I'll have to add a few more slats to the bed frame, probably, and see about rigging up some sort of center support** from the bottom. The center support would have to rest on the floor, because there's nothing it can attach to on the bed frame.

------------

* Even when my innerspring mattress is directly on the floor, the coils do not feel supportive enough, so I don't know how much of a factor those little dips were. The foundation seems quite sturdy.

** Or get something like the "adjustable center leg bed frame support" gizmo from Woodcraft (but I'd need a few of them), or some sort of steel support gizmo from The Sleep Shop (they have several options), or some sort of steel center support from Planet Bed (their "V-Rail" thing looks neat but might be overkill for me).

Those "BedBeam" things look very sturdy, but I don't think they'd work with my bed frame (ditto for some of these other metal support systems). My cross-slats aren't attached to the rails; they lie *on* the rails (or on the "cleats" if that's the proper term for that small ledge on each rail), so they're about a half-inch higher. The BedBeams and Metal Support Slats look like they're meant to be flush with the rails/cleats/ledges/whatever they're called, so I'd have to add half-inch-high blocks of wood under them where they'd attach to the ledges if I want to use them with my wooden slats (rather than instead of them).

Ditto with the Strong Arm Center Supports and these Mighty Lift supports; I'd have to shim them if I want to use them in addition to my slats, rather than instead of my slats. I guess these things & the BedBeams are intended to replace the wooden slats. (Um... duh?)

The Lazarbeam Center Support would work with the slats I have, since it's just meant to help keep them up.

So... replace the wooden slats with steel slats (that could get expensive); get something like the Lazarbeam; use those standalone things from Woodcraft; or find a very low-tech way to add center support to my wooden slats?

I could just get a long sturdy piece of lumber and give it a few sturdy "legs." Since any mattress I get is going to rest on the self-contained foundation, rather than on the bed-frame slats, I don't think I have to worry about the frame getting bowed outward to the sides. (Do I?)

(Pardon all my thinking-out-loud here. Those steel support systems are not returnable, so I don't want to get stuck with something that turns out not to work because I forgot some important detail, like, you know, how my bed frame is actually constructed.)

Of course, when I add the center support, I'll have to find another place to put the mattress, which is now stashed under my bed. It'll have to lean up against a wall somewhere or just go out to the curb.

Yesterday I covered the foundation with a sheet of luan so I wouldn't feel the metal grid from the foundation poking me. (Luan was probably not the best choice, but it was cheap, I didn't see any decent-looking pegboard, and I was delirious from lack of sleep. If I need something different later, I'll get what's needed.)   So now I have the Novabond mat under the luan, and the 2 sheets of Dacron from the mattress over that, and then my latex & my old thin fiberbed. (So now I feel a solid hard surface instead of metal wires; a different sort of discomfort but preferable to the wires... I think.)

I might order a few inches of 50 ILD or 35 ILD (or maybe an inch or two of both) from FBM to use as a temporary mattress core under my latex. If that's comfortable enough, it'll give me time to recover from the months of sleep deprivation & mattress-caused pain, and I'll be in better shape to decide if I want to stick with a PU foam base, go for a Dunlop core, or try another innerspring.  That's the hope, anyway. We'll see how things go.

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Added Monday AM: Last night I added one more inch of latex, using the stuff I'd tried zoning with (14 ILD, 32 ILD, 14 ILD; put below the 24 ILD and N3/27 ILD layers). Not wonderful, but it helped enough with pressure points that I might not need the temporary poly-foam core. Not quite sure yet. (Still some lower back pain, but I don't know if it's from the latex, from the dacron being worn out, from my slightly dippy slats, or from a combination of those. Shoulders were much better this morning, though.)

Um... did I say "easy"? Yeah, right.

I've got four of those adjustable center support thingies attached to a 6-foot pine 1"x4", and that's under all the slats now. And may I just say... what a freakin' pain in the a--.

The screws that came with each support were too long -- I didn't want them poking through the other side of the 1x4 -- so I had to go buy different screws. And you have to really wail on the rubber bottoms of those supports with a hammer to get the one piece inserted into the other. And I thought I finally had each support adjusted to the right height before I put the foundation back on the bed, but I still wound up on my back on the floor, under the bed (not much clearance there), using my crescent wrench, at all sorts of odd angles, to adjust the height of each support some more. And the supports don't seem particularly stable, at least on a hardwood floor -- maybe they'd work better if they sank into some carpet.

Also, while moving my torch lamp from my office to see how long the cord was, to see if it would reach into the bedroom so I could maybe see what I was doing while drilling starter holes and screwing the metal supports into the pine, I managed to topple the lamp over and send shards of glass all over -- in the office, down the hall, into my bedroom, and into the room at the other end of the hall. (All swept & vacuumed up now.... I hope.) So now I need to replace an $80 lamp that I really liked. 

Obviously there are much worse problems in the world, but I am not a happy camper right now.

Those supports and that 6' piece of pine better do their job, and I better be able to rule out dipping slats as a cause of any sink holes appearing in any mattress that ever goes on that bed. (So there!)

Man, I'm tired of wrestling with this stuff..... I'm lucky to be physically able to wrestle with this stuff, but I am tired of wrestling with it.

No decisions on the next mattress yet, either. Back still hurts; hip still hurts.

But the finger that got gouged a couple weeks ago appears to be healing with minimal scarring, so that's something.

Definitely, once you get your frame/supports situation under control, go for it.  err on the side of too firm with those.. And it might not be temporary after all. Even if it is, at this point I'd try any solution that potentially provides pain free sleep as priority one, with longevity being way down the list.  But I've accepted mattresses as more of consumables, & don't care if I end up having to buy a new one every few years if it otherwise works.

I sure hope the frame/supports situation is under control now!

I do need to do something soon, that's for sure. I was holding off on ordering the foam until I had a chance to look at a 10-year-old barely used innerspring-mattress-and-box-spring set that friends are selling. Thought I'd see it this weekend, but we're having scheduling difficulties.

I also did some research on flame retardants and got myself thoroughly confused.... No idea if conventional mattresses made before the 2007 regulation use any less-toxic materials than mattresses made after that.

Trying not to do so much research that I let "the perfect be the enemy of the good," but I don't want to waste more money, either. There's a fine line there... somewhere.....

Unfortunately flame retardants & toxins haven't even been on my radar. Just so long as it doesn't have a strong smell, can't deal with that, it's been even further down the list of priorities than longevity.  Hopefully sticking purely with what works for comfort & pain free sleep at the expense of everthing else doesn't cost me down the line, but I probably have one of the least natural setups here.  

No idea if this really is a sale price or if this company is now playing the same game that City Mattress and other big retailers play, where there's always a "sale." (I don't think they were doing that when I bought my mattress from them in 2009, but I couldn't swear to it.) Their products page has a banner ad saying "Get 50% off our entire line of better and best comfort-level mattress models. Plus, shop today and you'll receive a free guest room mattress set. TODAY THROUGH SUNDAY" -- That ad, complete with "today through Sunday," has been there at least since New Year's. So... um... Which Sunday?
 

There's a non-Euro-top pocket-coil mattress, too, which I'd meant to lie on but forgot to. It uses just PU foam (1.8 lb in the mattress, 1.5 and 1.2 lb quilted into the case); no latex.

I also lay on their "Nature's Cloud Classic Latex (one-sided)" mattress -- it's just 6" of 24-26 ILD Dunlop, in a wool-and-organic-cotton case. It's nice. Firmer feeling than I expected. Probably fine for the hips; a little tough on my shoulders. (I think the ILD is comparable to my 2" Overstock topper, but it's hard to tell from 2" of it how 6" will feel.)  That one is $1099 for the set (mattress & wood foundation); I forgot to ask how much just the mattress is. Prices were not listed separately on the sale tags.

All of the tags listed "suggested retail" and "sale" prices. None of them listed specs. The salesman was very nice, & tried to be helpful, and he gave me spec sheets. These sheets just list the contents of each mattress, though (like "1.5 lb polyurethane foam"); they don't say how much of each component is in there. There are no cut-aways showing the innards of the various mattresses.

Although there is not as much info as I would like on the spec sheets, the company definitely gets major points for being straightforward and saying "1.5 lb polyurethane foam" instead of some made-up marketing-hype no-clue-what-it-means name like the "S" brands do.

Oh, and the salesman said all the coil counts given are for full-size mattresses.

I saw some Euro tops with zippers there, so I wonder if Jamestown would make a custom mattress cover with a zipper.

I didn't even mention custom mattresses, but the salesman sort of pre-emptively discouraged that, saying "you don't know what it's going to feel like until you get it." Well.... yeah... but that doesn't mean it's not worth looking into.


I'm all for supporting local independent manufacturers, when feasible, but I'm wondering if the bulk of this company's products are really much different from the conventional "S"-brand mattresses. There's a bunch of 1.5 lb PU in several of their mattresses. (I'm assuming that's too low-density to hold up, but I don't know for sure; specs don't say whether the foam is regular, HR, Lux, or whatever.) 

The warranty sheet says:  "Today's newer, plusher mattresses will show slight body impressions with up to 1-1/4" being considered normal. For this reason, flip and rotate your mattress every few weeks when it is brand new." [I don't consider an inch+ to be "slight," but I gather that this is normal in the industry now.]

The warranty has a special section titled "Body Impressions on the Surface": "Your new, thick mattress will require special care and understanding of its construction for you to fully enjoy it in the years to come. It is completely different from your old mattress in construction, feel, and appearance. It will not feel or wear like your old mattress. Body impressions are normal occurrences that are to be expected in this type of construction and do not indicate a structural failure or defect. ...  This mattress has more upholstery layers than the old-style mattresses. The more fill you have, the more settling you will have. ... You purchased this mattress because of its thick, plush look and feel. It is only logical that it will conform to your body with normal use. This mattress will need frequent turning for you to receive the best wear possible."

So, I'm reading this as saying, basically, "We put a lot more foam in these things than we used to, so of course it's going to crater after a while."  Am I being unfair? They do make some all-latex mattresses and some two-sided flippable mattresses. (The one I cut open was two-sided with minimal padding and it still didn't work for me, but maybe the offset coils aren't the best kind for me, or maybe I needed more coils and/or thicker steel. Who knows?)

There's also this in the warranty: "Your bedding will be replaced or repaired should your mattress be defective due to faults in our workmanship or structural defects in materials... under the following conditions:" -- followed by 6 conditions, most of which seem reasonable. But #4 is "The customer will be expected to pay all costs for transportation and handling of bedding." Huh. Is that normal?

A big part of my interest here is just the geeky kind; I'm interested not just in mattress construction but in the business itself. I think this company might be missing a great opportunity to truly distinguish itself from the competition.


The salesman there today has been in the mattress business for 30 years and has sold all sorts of mattresses -- he thinks Simmons still makes good mattresses. (I did not mention cheap foam or mattress surgery.) Because he'd been in the business for so long, I was hoping he'd have some idea of why the 14.5-gauge offset coils did not work for me, but he had no idea. Just said that pocket coils are more conforming. He was very nice, though, and he did his best to be helpful. (And he didn't hover, and there was no hard sell at all.) And we somehow wound up talking about our cats for a while, and it's always pleasant to meet another cat-lover.
 

I have so much latex here already that I'm still tempted to get some 22 ILD Talalay from SleepEZ or Arizona Mattress Co. to put on the top of my stack (and get rid of this awful 14 ILD stuff) and get a 3" firm Dunlop core. I'd be all set then -- IF I don't need zoning. Still not sure about that. I also like the idea of finding a good pocket-coil base and a zippable cover, and putting my latex in that.

(If I ever say that I'm thinking about trying a Flobeds VZone, somebody please slap me upside the head. I'm sure it's a wonderful product... but not for someone who already suffers from Mattress OCD. I'd never stop rearranging layers & pieces. I mean, I can't even stop researching this stuff.... )

Oh she's ill. Well in that case nevermind trying to get it out of her for free I guess- although really that's fair if you're hauling a 10yo mattress away for her.

How much was their nature's cloud that was borderline too firm?  Great that it doesn't put much if any other foams between you & the latex, & they don't get any more firm once you get them home. only less so over time.  

Otherwise 720 coils/full translates to ~880queen, 1100king.  If you're trying to correlate that 1.5lb PU into Sealy's terminology, it's probably equivalent to their standard "sealyfoam"(1.2lb is "supersoft sealyfoam", lux "marvelux", omalon "omalux" etc.), but who knows. At least they give you that much from the specs. And yeah it sounds like any logistics involved in the warranty will be on your dime, assuming you can meet the other qualifiers.  I don't put much stock in warranties anyway.  I say at this point if you found something that will work for you out of the box, forget about warranties, coil counts, foam densities etc. & go for it- so long as they have a little to no penalty return policy one of those are as good a shot as any.

I'd want to pay her something for it one way or the other, because it's been used so little that it might as well be brand new (guests almost always use the other guest room and therefore a different bed & mattress). But yeah, these friends are having more than their fair share of difficulties right now, and they have always been very generous, so even if they tried to give it to me for free, I'd be wanting to pay them something.

The set was about $1100. I'd have to call or stop in again to find out what just the mattress costs. Probably $900-ish.

I mostly wanted to just see how that one feels, to get an idea of what I'd need for a base if I go all-latex by adding to what I already have (that is actually useful), which is several inches of medium to medium-firm stuff. I'd only need a few inches of firm stuff on the bottom and a couple inches of medium-soft stuff on the top. If I got the Nature's Cloud Classic, I'd still need something softer on top of it, for my shoulders, and wouldn't have a use for the medium latex I already have, unless I cut it up for zoning. (The wool and cotton mattress case would be nice, though.)

The pocket-coil mattress seemed pretty decent overall. Although again, I'd rather find a way to use what I have, if I can. (Might not be feasible, but I want to be sure, one way or the other, before spending $1K on a new mattress.) I'd like to be able to buy just a zippered case and the pocket coils, like what Bay Bed in CA offers.

Funny: Even with all my research & reading the fine print, I don't know what Jamestown's return policy is. It's not stated in the warranty, and I haven't seen it on the website. So I'd have to ask about that, too. There's a 30-day "comfort policy" -- "Your bedding will be modified, rebuilt, or upgraded..." -- but I don't see an actual return policy. I'm guessing no returns.

OK, I know I'm being like a dog with a bone here, and I don't mean to be overly critical, but I wanted to know if I could trust the specs I was given the other day, and I get impatient when companies put incorrect info on their websites.*

So I emailed someone in the bedding group at Leggett & Platt, and got a response the same night -- even though this person was on the road for a trade show. Impressive. And no, there is no Lura-Flex pocket-coil; Lura-Flex refers only to a specific design of offset coils made by L&P.

I also emailed the main office of the mattress company and asked if the specs for their pocket-coil mattresses were correct. I got a response the next morning (today, actually) saying that no, their website needs to be changed. It was quite a thorough response, with all the specs for the mattress. So that was handy.

(Turns out, those mattresses use L&P's "Tri-Zone Body Print" pocket coils (PDF); gauges are 15 and 15-1/2. I suspect I'd want something heavier than that, but that's just a guess.)

And here's some info (also from Jamestown) that might be useful for anyone looking at Dunlop latex. If you see just "D" followed by numbers, here's what the ILD correlations are (at least from one manufacturer; don't know which one):

D75 Soft:  ILD 16-18
D85 Medium:  ILD 24-27
D95 Firm:  ILD 36-38

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* For instance, this claim at mattresses.net: "We are pleased to offer the only "true" 100% natural talalay latex cores." Um.... tell that to Flobeds and SleepEZ and probably a few other companies. I'm sure the products are fine, so why exaggerate the claims? Let the products speak for themselves.

(Guess I should have used "Dragnet" as a username here. You know.... "Just the facts, ma'am." )

* Jamestown Mattress will custom-make a zippered mattress case (at least with their conventional materials; not sure about the wool-and-cotton case). I still don't know what I'm doing next, but it's nice to know this option is there. They even gave me info about how they'd handle the fire barrier in the zipper area. (I'm just not sure they have any springs I'd like.)

* My temporary setup (stacks of latex toppers over dacron, over luan, on my steel-and-wood foundation) has been hurting my shoulders and my back, right between the shoulder blades. I have the luan cut in 3 pieces, so yesterday I removed the piece that goes across the head-and-shoulders area, and then put everything back. Not a complete solution, but I think it helped a little last night.

The only reason this is remotely worth posting about is just that I'm fascinated that something below 8" of latex can be felt. Or even, in essence, below 5" of medium to medium-firm latex, because the top 3" use that super-soft 14 ILD stuff, which I crash right through. (Across the hip area, I'm using the yoga mat 3" down from the top, and another piece of luan 5" down from the top, for some artificial zoning.)

So, I'm beginning to understand the reasoning behind those adjustable-slat foundations... maybe... I think.... Doesn't mean I'm gonna run out and buy one -- not sure they're even available for full-size beds -- I just like getting a little better understanding of these things.

We talked for a bit; I told him about the mattress surgery, about the stack of various toppers I'm sleeping on now, and about the difficulties of balancing support with pressure relief (i.e., if hips are OK, my shoulders get crunched); and he said he wouldn't recommend a latex mattress for me. He thinks I'll do better using latex over springs; and he advised finding a continuous-coil innerspring (with at least 660 coils for a full-size mattress) and *avoiding* pocket coils because they might let the hips sink too far. 

Huh. I was almost ready to pull the trigger on the topper (it would have been returnable), but he thought I'd be wasting my money. He was very generous with his time, and said to call back if I have any more questions. I can see why he has such a great reputation on this board.

He asked if I'd tried putting the soft latex under the medium latex. I have -- I've tried just about every configuration imaginable -- but I might not have tried putting the 14 ILD on the very bottom of my current stack. I doubt that it will help much, because it's *so* soft, but I might try it just for the heck of it. Or not....

I had mentioned that I wasn't sure if latex would work for me without zoning, and he said "zoning defeats the purpose of using latex." Interesting point of view. I didn't really want to mess with the zoning attempts anymore, but I did like the idea of an all-latex mattress -- or at least a mattress without any poly foam, polyester, poly-anythng, or chemical fire retardents.

There was something else... oh, I said I wasn't sure if latex wasn't working for me because it just won't work for me or if it's because I have a weird collection of the wrong ILDs and just don't have the *right* latex for me. Apparently the former; he still recommended using springs.

So... back to the drawing board... and the search for springs.

I've been re-reading old posts on the forum, and I believe the user named Kait has a build similar to mine (in height, weight, & general proportions), and she had similar problems finding a balance between pressure relief & back support. If I remember correctly, she did not like pocket coils (not enough support for her back) and wound up using a 12-gauge offset coil (in a custom-made mattress complete with cotton batting), with maybe a fiberbed of some sort over the bed. Hmmmm......

Budgy says he doesn't even carry anything with continuous coil springs (see post #26 in this thread). Another tidbit from Budgy, in that same thread: "Continuous coils used by Serta are very light weight; they might have high spring counts but they are low on the # of turns in the wire with an average or thinner than average steel." Good to know. Lots of good info from Budgy in that thread.

Different experts (Sean & Budgy), very different opinions about continuous coils. (Sean didn't recommend a brand; just recommended continuous coils in general, for me.) Oh, the joys of mattress shopping....

I wish there were mattress stores that let people try out just the springs -- without all the foam & upholstery & all that on top -- so we could each figure out the best kind of coils for ourselves.

--------

(When I bought my mattress in 2009, I thought I *was* getting 660 coils [different kind of coil], so I'm a tad miffed about winding up with 522. Hmph.)

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And yet another post of mine turns into a dissertation.... Big surprise. For anyone who answers, please don't quote the whole thing. (Oooh, look, she's bossy, too!)

Now that guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about!

He very well may be correct. He also may not be. The ONLY way for Catherine to know for sure is to try a solid latex mattress. If a solid latex mattress does work for her, then life is easy. She's done. If not, then she's back to where she's at now, albeit with the knowledge that solid latex is no longer an option. The truth is, that she'll never know until she tries one. Unfortunately there's a cost involved in trying anything.

I personally have no idea if a latex mattress is going to work for me, other than lying on a few at our local City Mattress store. I did decide to give a flobed a try. If it does work out, then great. I'll be set for the next 15+ years. If it does not, then I'll be in the same boat as Catherine, albeit out $300 in lost shipping costs for the expiriment (more if I perform any core swaps). But I will have the knowledge of knowing for sure that latex is not for me.

The truth of the matter is that no one will know for sure if solid latex works until they try it. I personally love the flobeds model too, since I can try out different firmnesses at a very nominal fee. Several posters have mentioned how they had to do a few core swaps to get their bed perfect. Had core swaps not been available, these people may have quickly given up on latex too assuming latex was not for them.

Flobeds mentions that 95% of their customers are happy with their purchases. There is always a chance that Catherine, you, or I might be the 1 out of 20 people that it does not work for. But as I said before, there is only one way to know for sure, and that is not by talking to a mattress salesperson.

Well... of course. Sean was making a thoughtful recommendation, not offering a guarantee.

Based on the experimenting I've done so far, during the past 5 months, I suspect that he is right about my needing springs.

I'm not sure I can find a continuous-coil mattress with a decent coil count & wire gauge (& price); and even if I do find one to try out locally, I won't know if it's the coils or whatever padding is on top of the springs that's most responsible for how it feels.

It's possible that really well-constructed, heavy-gauge pocket coils would work -- something like the expensive GreenSleep systems that Budgy has mentioned -- or that offset coils would work if they're heavier than the 14.5-gauge Lura-Flex coils that gave out. Again, sort of impossible to tell just by lying on mattresses, since they're usually covered with poly foam and quilting. There must be a better way.

I'm sure Flobeds has great products. It just seems more likely that I'll have better luck with latex over springs -- if I can find a good base. Which might come from a new mattress (which I'd use until it needed surgery) or might come from the mattress my friend is selling (haven't seen it yet).

I did move my super-soft latex to the bottom of my stack last night. (Still using the yoga mat and luan for artififical zoning.) I think this arrangement feels better, but I'm not certain. Pretty sure my spine is still nowhere near straight....

By the way, I thought the Prana latex mattresses at City Mattress were actually latex on top of poly foam. Am I wrong? Oh, never mind; looked it up, and I see that some of the Prana mattresses are latex-on-poly-foam and the super-expensive line of Prana mattresses are all latex. (But of course they don't give you specs -- not online anyway.) Well, maybe I'll go lie on a few anyway at some point.

There is someone in my house who appears to adore soft latex -- my cat has taken a liking to my soft-ish latex pillows. I've been sharing a pillow with her for parts of the past few nights. (Small kitty. And her purring helps me fall asleep.)

I wasn't trying to be rude to Sean, I was just trying to make a point. I apologize if it came across that way.

Catherine wrote:

This is very much a possibility. Once again, though, there is only one way to find out.

Catherine wrote:

I'm not trying to sell flobeds, as there is nothing special about their product. LI foam inside a nice cotton/wool encasement. What they do well is their business model of allowing 100 day guarantee, and very affordable core swaps. I do believe LI latex foam + their nice cover will make a top end all latex mattress. If this works, then great!

To be perfectly honest, I'd just build my own latex bed if I knew for sure a latex bed works for me and what core ILDs I need. I do not, hence my willing to pay the premium price for a flobed.

Catherine wrote:

The current line of Pranasleeps (4th Generation) available at Citymattress do not incorporate any poly foam. If you have a citymattress nearby, I'd recommend trying out a few. You are correct in the fact that they do not list their ILD specs online. They do however mention that they all use 100% natural latex except for their Om Shanti model which uses blended latex. The salesman I spoke to also showed me paperwork stating their foam is from LI. Trying these out still only gives you an idea of what latex is capable of, as they only have a few firmness models.

I'm certainly not trying to steer you to latex, I'd just hate to see you buy another $500+ matttress, perform surgery on it, possibly trying a different latex topper or two (other than the ones you already have), and still not get it right.
 

I understand what you're getting at, and I appreciate the concern; thanks for clarifying.

And you're right -- I'd have to try a real mattress, rather than trying to approximate one with a stack of various 1" and 2" toppers, to find out for sure one way or the other -- I'm just not sure I want to do that right now, given the poor results of the experimenting I've done so far.

Of course, I'm not sure of anything right now where mattresses are concerned. Well, other than that the entire industry needs a massive overhaul.

I'd love to avoid doing another mattress surgery, considering that this one turned out so poorly. (I think it might have worked fine if the springs had been better/stronger, but who knows?)

It just doesn't seem like there are a lot of good options unless I want to double or triple my general price range -- and it's probably not worth spending oodles more for a high-end full-size mattress, resting on a frame that I'd like to replace eventually but not just yet. (Prices for queen-size mattresses don't generally seem much higher than those for full-size, and you get more options, like split foundations with adjustable slats.)

Um... I think that's a long way of saying that for now, I just want something I can get by with for a while, using some of the stuff I have now.

(I actually slept OK last night but I'm still really tired... some of that fatigue has to be residual from the lack of decent sleep the night before.)

Amen!

LOL calm down bro, he was just making a suggestion, not guaranteeing that any particular solution will work for anyone.  Just noting for those who've been following along that I also made that suggestion several dozens of posts back, because latex over springs has been my go-to setup for a couple of years now. A few inches of memory foam over springs is nice too though, even if it doesn't hold up as long.  Either way, ultimately I've found there's no substitute for springs through solid foam alone, as some have.

What ever came of the mattress your friend was trying to dump? If that or something like it doesn't come through soon for further experimentation, just start trying some ready out of the box stuff from retailers that offer 100% no risk returns.  For instance all of the mattresses at samsclub that are listed as having free shipping (well, shipping included)- if it doesn't work out, they come pick it up & you don't pay anything either way. All of your money back. Then the ones where shipping is extra, that's all you lose  when they pick it up, the amount of shipping, one way.  Same with costco, & maybe some of your smaller retailers in your area too. Because there's only a finite number of possible combinations one can stack the layers you're working with- don't lose too much more sleep spinning your wheels.

Nah, you're misinterpreting the tone there; read the next couple of posts, and you'll see.

Haven't seen my friend's mattress yet; she's still quite ill (we haven't even been able to exchange Christmas gifts yet). We try to make plans, but the plans change; that's just the way it is.

No Costco in my area. Sam's Club mattresses appear to be all Sertas (all that are listed online). Already forgot what's at BJ's, but nothing stood out.

If/when I get the time & energy, I'll take a look at department stores and mattress retailers. Might be a while, though; I'm working a lot.

Did some mattress shopping on Saturday, but nothing knocked my socks off.   Tried various memory-foam mattresses; hated them.   Found the continuous-coil Sertas to be quite uncomfortable (hard on the shoulders).   Didn't find anything really comfortable at Jamestown Mattress.   Nor at City Mattress -- although I didn't spend much time on any given mattress there, and had a salesman talking at me the whole time I was there.  He seemed a bit sad about the decline of Stearns & Foster (after it got bought by Sealy's) and of Sealy's (after it got bought by a private equity firm). He seemed to think that Simmons mattresses are still built OK. (And he thinks Stearns & Foster are still the best, but are not what they used to be.) 

I might have to go to a different City Mattress store and spend some time on the PranaSleep latex mattresses (without someone talking at me) to see how those feel.

As far as coils go, I didn't like the continuous-coil mattresses I tried, so I'm still thinking that pocket coils might be supportive enough if they're around 13 gauge (not the 15-gauge lightweight ones); or maybe offset coils would work in a low gauge (Original Mattress Factory's Orthopedic line uses 12.75-gauge knotted offset coils).  I don't think I want to drive 4.5 to 5 hours to an Original Mattress Factory store, though.

Might have to get some high-density poly foam from FBM after all.... (Or maybe not, since I read a few posts here saying that the PU foam had a horrible smell -- presumably, the lovely petrochemical offgassing.)

I confess that I am still wondering if I could latex zoning right, if I had a couple inches of 20-22 ILD Talalay to work with. Argh.

i remember reading a bunch of this thread back in the days when I was active here. Sorry you are struggling so. Re your zoning issue, have you tried laying fabric or cardboard or anything under the latex where you want more support? Even a towel makes a pretty big difference. Although so far I haven't found anything "magic" this way...

Thanks for your comments in the other thread. Good luck!

Steve

Right now, I'm using a 5mm yoga mat, 2" down in the stack, and a piece of luan 3" below that (both going across the middle third of the bed, for the hip area). They might be helping, but I'm not there yet.

I'm adding one more piece of luan, in the same spot as the first piece; we'll see if that helps any or just makes pressure points worse.

I hate to say it, but I'm thinking about buying an S-brand mattress: a firm Sealy Posturepedic with the DSi pocket coils. Has a 560 coil count for a queen; don't know the count for a full size; don't know the gauge. Seems like a low coil count, actually, but hard to tell without knowing the gauge. The top panel uses some sort of stretchy knit fabric. [Edited to add: The Simmons Beautyrest Classic firm pocket-coil mattresses have 617 coils in a full-size mattress, with 13-gauge coils. So that makes the coil count for this Sealy seem really low -- maybe even ridiculously low -- even if the coils are a low gauge. Hmmm....]

Sale price for that Sealy (the stores are all having President's Day sales this weekend) was $650 for the set; $539 for just the full-size mattress (or $499 online). The mattress did feel substantial, and was among the least-padded ones there (11" height). For that price, if the mattress lasted a couple of years, it might be worth it. It has a foam encasement around the coils, so I'd think that would hold the thing together if I had to do surgery on it.

The salesman at the furniture store was useless -- said he'd check on specs for me but then came back without them... twice. (Youngish guy; probably new at sales; not very confident.) There's a 30-day comfort exchange; the salesman said he thinks returns are allowed, but he didn't sound very sure, so I'd have to check on that.

I'd like to try the Sealys with the interlocked coils, but so far, I haven't seen any of them here. The furniture store I was in doesn't carry them; City Mattress doesn't seem to carry them (they have mostly Simmons & Prana). Forgot to check Sears while I was at the mall today. The Macys stores in my town don't carry mattresses at all, as far as I know.

Didn't like a single Serta mattress; Serta's VertiCoil continuous-coil mattresses are incredibly bouncy.

Tried a variety of memory foam mattresses just to see if I could give them a fair chance. Which I did. But I still don't like them. I know that slpngoc loves his Tempurpedic Cloud, but I just can't get used to those things. I'm a lightweight, and those memory foam mattresses still feel like they're grabbing me and not letting go; yech.

Tried the various Prana latex mattresses at City Mattress, and didn't really like the feel of them -- but that might be because they have thick, quilted & sort-of-tufted tops: very uneven.

I'll have to venture out again sometime soon and have another go at this.

I don't like the idea of buying an S-brand, but there aren't many options if I want coils and want to buy locally. I don't like the 14.5 gauge LuraFlex offset coils at Jamestown Mattress (they're the ones that gave out on me). Not sure I trust the 15 and 15.5 gauge pocket coils there, either (seem too light weight), but the heavier gauge (15) is used in the center third, which is where I'd need it, and the full size has 713 coils, so I dunno... maybe that would be OK. (The other spring mattresses there use VertiCoil or Bonnell springs, and they're both too bouncy.)

Here's something weird: try finding anything about the DSi coils on Sealy's website -- and good luck with that. Their in-store marketing materials make a big deal out of these coils, but I could not find a single reference to the DSi pocket coils on sealy.com. Yeah, that inspires confidence.... Not. If I want pocket coils, maybe I'll go with Simmons or Jamestown.

I've come to my senses, at least partially, and ruled out the Sealy I was considering yesterday (a firm Posturepedic with the DSi pocket coils). The coil count seems way too low for the mattress to hold up for any reasonable length of time.

Today, someone at a different branch of the furniture store I visited yesterday tried to find specs for me, and it appears that Sealy doesn't publish them even for their retailers (not for the DSi coils anyway). That can't be a good sign. And the in-store marketing materials from Sealy describe their "power-packed" "CoreSupport system" as having a 1" layer of memory foam and a 2" layer of Supersoft Sealyfoam.  Um... not my idea of support.

I did like some of the firmer Simmons mattresses, including an extra firm Beautyrest Elite that is similar to this one at us-mattress.com (13 gauge "Smart Response" pocket coils, 726 coils for full size [900 queen]). For an extra firm, this mattress still had a surprising amount of give, and would probably be fine with my toppers.

The one at this local store has a sale price of about $1240 (around $1330 with tax). The comparable one at us-mattress.com, with a Presidents Day sale price of $974, is still several hundred bucks more than I'd like to spend right now, on a mattress that might get turned into a guest bed in a year or so if I can ever get my act together and move house.

Also went to another Jamestown Mattress store and tried out the pocket-coil mattress they call "ultra firm" ($739 for a full-size set). It was sort of OK. I think I like the 13-gauge ones (Simmons) better.

This store had 5- or 6-inch square blocks of Dunlop from Latex Green, labeled D75, D85, and D95, sitting out for people to see; that was quite useful. I had wondered if the 16-18 ILD Dunlop (D75) would be OK for a top layer for me, and I think now that it would not be; pretty sure my shoulders would get crunched. The D95 stuff (36-38 ILD) is seriously firm. That'd make one heck of a core for anyone wanting a firm latex mattress.

Anyway... no mattress purchase yet. Gonna have to think about how much I'm willing to spend. There's quite a price difference between the Beautyrest Classic lines (regular pocket coils) and Beautyrest Elite lines ("Smart Response" 2-stage pocket coils). I could go with a Classic, like this one, for less dough and still get 13 gauge coils, and maybe that'd be fine for a while.

Some days I wake up really sore and think I must make a decision and buy a mattress very soon; other days, it's not so bad and I think I can make do for a while longer with my weird collection of latex foam.

Yeah, the Sealy coil count seems a bit low, especially with the issues you have had with your current mattress.  At one point I was tempted to get the top of the line extra-firm Simmons.   I liked it, but thought it too firm.  The plush one seemed too soft, so I could not get quite comfortable with either.   I am not sure what the coil count was.   At the time they had 3 tiers, and this was in the top tier.   When I tried one in the mid tier, I noticed a material drop off in support. 

I wonder if the drop-off was because of a change in coil count, coil gauge, or both.

The past few mornings, I've woken up quite sore, and this morning I'm really a hurtin' puppy -- probably a combo of putting the soft latex back on the top of my stack and getting all twisted around somehow. So I'm thisclose to pulling the trigger on the Simmons BR Classic Tomahawk Firm at us-mattress.com. It's not even in the mid-tier line, but with 617 13-gauge coils for the full size, I'm thinking it's worth taking a chance on.

It seems pretty similar to one I tried at the furniture store. And you can't beat the price, at $529 for the set -- nothing local can even come close. And with all the dough I've spent on latex recently, I'm not willing to spend $1K+ for a mid-tier or top-tier mattress. (I might in a couple of years, but not right now -- not unless I absolutely have to.)

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And... I must have hit the Edit button in my previous post to Sandman, when I meant to hit Quote in Sandman's post, because my earlier response to Sandman's post is now gone, and this one is here instead. D'oh!

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Edited (again) to add:
I just ordered the Simmons BR Tomahawk Firm from us-mattress.com. It'll take a few weeks to get here. After I get it, I'll let y'all know if my gamble paid off or if I just added to my list of mistakes.

At this point, if the mattress works for me now and lasts 2 years, I'll be happy with it.

Fingers crossed....

good luck with this Catherine. I'll be interested in hearing how this goes.

by the way, i've been thinking, even though this probably isn't a flippable mattress, if you are just wanting to put a topper on springs, why not flip it? Then you don't have any of their cheap topper materials between you and the springs. Just a thought...

steve

Thanks; I am soooo ready for this mattress to arrive. No word yet on the delivery date, but I knew when I ordered it that it would take a few weeks.

The mattress isn't designed to be flippable, but you might have a good idea there. The only question is whether the half-inch of Simmons "EnergyFoam" that's on the bottom of the mattress would interfere with the spring action too much. It's described as "Heavy grade polyurethane foam" with "High ILD for firmness." And "Utilized below the coil unit to help create a supportive, durable foundation for the No-Flip mattress design." No actual specs, though, so who knows?

Can't hurt to try flipping the mattress, ifI don't like it right-side up, but I'll try it right-side up first.

I hope you find a mattress you like, Steve; keep us posted.

And the mattress came today! (The Simmons Tomahawk Firm from us-mattress.com.)

I got a call last week telling me that the delivery guys would be in my area this Wed. and that I'd get a confirmation call on Tuesday afternoon. Yesterday I got the call confirming delivery and telling me that the guys would be here between 11 am and 3 pm. They came at 2 pm, brought up the new mattress & foundation, were careful when going upstairs and around corners, washed the packaging grime off their hands before handling the unpackaged mattress & foundation, set everything up for me, & took away the old foundation.

There is a bit of new-mattress smell -- I'll have to hope the off-gassing goes away soon and/or doesn't kill what brain cells I have left -- but I've got a fan aimed at the bed now, and 2 windows open.

I'll report back after I've slept on the new mattress for a few days or so.

I hope I haven't made (yet another) mistake, but it's only been a week, so the mattress might still be OK after breaking in some more. When I change the sheets, I'll walk around on it, in the shoulder area, to see if I can get that foam softened a bit.

A couple factors contributing to the firmness could be:

(a) my allergen encasing is tighter on this mattress than on my old one, because this mattress is thicker (11"), so although there is still some give in the fabric, there's not quite as much; and

(b) this mattress top has the dreaded tufting buttons (which I knew about when I bought it; they're shown clearly in the photo at us-mattress.com). If I keep this mattress, I might remove those buttons, at least across the top third of the mattress, to see if that allows the foam to be more giving. I would think it would. If I'm on my side and my shoulder lands in one of those tuft-button dents, there can't be much foam to sink into.

If I slept only on my back, the mattress would probably be fine as is. It's that pesky side-sleeping that complicates things.

It used to be impossible for me to fall asleep on my back, but I've been trying to train myself to switch, and sometimes I can now fall asleep on my back. I position myself using Esther Gokhale's "stretch-lying" technique, and that helps. (For info about the Gokhale Method, see the website.)

Just my 2 cents.....

I've already done that kind of zoning -- with the latex toppers on my old mattress, and then after doing mattress surgery on my old mattress, and then while sleeping on just my toppers (some zoned) after ditching my old mattress. It didn't work well enough, which is why I bought a new mattress.
 

Well, I haven't been coming here and reading obsessively, so I guess the mattress situation can't be too bad now.... (Instead, I'm in the midst of a badly needed organizing/decluttering spree.)

It's not great, actually, but even if I wake up a little sore, it doesn't last all day and I haven't been feeling crippled by the mattress, so that's an improvement. Also helps that I finally went to see my LMT, who does trigger point therapy, and got some serious knots loosened up (ow).

I've been migrating toward the middle of the mattress lately, instead of sticking to my side, so maybe that'll help break it in more evenly. I might still wind up taking out those button tufts at some point, but I'm holding off on that. I should wait until after the 100-day period for comfort exchanges is up, although I have no idea what I'd exchange this thing for. It is not a bad mattress for the money.

Before I bought this mattress, I bought the 2" 22 ILD topper from the Arizona Premium Mattress Co. My initial plan there was to try that out, and do some zoning under it, to get a better sense of whether an all-latex mattress would work for me. I wasn't going to buy an innerspring mattress until after doing that experiment -- but then I woke up feeling crippled too many days in a row (after I'd ordered the topper but before it arrived, which took a while), so I went ahead and gambled on the Simmons, which I knew would take 2-3 weeks to arrive.  Basically, the pain I was in tossed my plan out the window -- and I figured that since the Simmons would be quite firm, I'd still need the 22 ILD topper.

Gotta say, that 22 ILD topper from Arizona Premium is really nice. I had doubts and almost canceled the order, so I called the company, spoke with a guy there named Greg, and was reassured enough to keep the order. I asked if they could find me a seamless piece; he said they'd try but couldn't guarantee it; and what arrived was indeed a seamless flawless full 2 inches of 22 ILD natural latex. It is soft but has way more substance than the 14 ILD stuff -- in fact, Greg at Arizona said they don't sell anything softer than 19 ILD because the softer stuff has no substance. 

So anyway, that's on top of my Simmons right now, along with my 1" of zoned latex (14 / 32 / 14 ILD). And my yoga mat is still under the hip area. I think I need to move that up an inch, so it's directly under the 2" topper, but we'll see if the shoulder area of the mattress breaks in more.

I'm thinking that my collection of medium and medium-firm latex might make a good futon couch or part of a decent guest bed at some point, so I'll hang on to that for a while. 

I gave the 2" 14 ILD topper to my mom to try out, but she didn't like it, so it's coming back here. Might have to try to sell that. (I keep thinking that it could be cut up to make a wonderful bunch of kitty beds or small-doggie beds. But then someone would have to sew covers for them... and that someone ain't gonna be me.)

Did that answer your question? (I see that you have a recent thread here; I'll take a look now.)

I just stripped the bed to change the sheets, so while I was at it, I took off the toppers and the wool mattress pad so I could check the mattress. It is indeed breaking in rather nicely (and visibly), especially in the shoulder area -- in fact, it's broken in enough that now I need to either sleep on the other side of the bed for a while or just rotate the mattress so the whole thing gets broken in more evenly and I don't roll in toward the middle of it. (I'll probably switch sides for a bit, and then rotate the thing.)

I think my use of the yoga mat over the hip area is helping that part of the mattress to *not* sink in too much, but we'll see....

Pretty sure that this mattress will be OK for a bit (and that I'll take off some of those tufting buttons eventually), but... again... we'll see. It's heavier and more unwieldy to handle than my old mattress, but I don't care about that, as long it lets me sleep decently and doesn't make my back hurt.

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Edited the next morning to add:
There's nothing like sleeping on the un-broken-in side of the bed to make one realize just how much the slept-on side has broken in. Looks like I'm going to have crunched shoulders again for a little while.... but at least now I know this side *will* break in, and then my shoulders & upper back will be happier again.