Hi,

First, thanks for this forum - it's a great resource.  I only wish I'd discovered it a few weeks ago!

At any rate, I recently purchased a new Simmons beautyrest firm, non-pillowtop mattress (yes, I'm aware of the concerns about Simmons, but apparently the firm mattresses use a heavier gauge wire in the coils less prone to sagging).  The mattress is uncomfortably firm, and I believe it is seriously exacerbating my previously-mild lower back pain.   I read in the very helpful newbie thread that one should always get the firmest mattress possible and then add toppers as needed, but my concern is that a too-firm mattress isn't allowing my hips and shoulders (I'm a side sleeper) to sink sufficiently to keep my spine aligned (and there appears to be some support [no pun intended!] for this hypothesis: http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20031113/best-mattress-for-lower-back-pain).  I did try a 3 inch memory foam topper (fairly dense) and it seemed to help but could only tolerate one night due to it being way too hot. 

I am thus considering availing myself of Sleepy's exchange policy to get a less firm mattress (probably sleep to live, which I know gets quite a few negative reviews, or a plus simmons, which will be more prone to sagging than the firm one I currently have).  The other option is to try other toppers.  I have a few questions:

- I understand that toppers can alleviate pressure points in a firm mattress, but will toppers also allow enough sinking to ensure proper spinal alignment?  Might a plush mattress be better, not for comfort but for alignment?

- I've seen "cool" MF topper advertised - does anyone have actual experience with MF toppers that slept cool?

- Would a latex topper be a better choice?  I know it wouldn't have the head issue , but would it allow enough sinking to ensure proper alignment?  Any other topper recommendations?

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!

adamjs wrote:

Are you sure yours is 16oz per square yard?   That would be very thick for polyester.

Anyway, polyester really does not absorb moiusture, while wool does.  That is probably the main factor.   I think alot of the heat is really trapped humidity.  Breathable foams can help, but they don't absorb the humidty.   Based on the laws of physics, anything you are sleeping on will warm up towards your body temperature and get warm.  I am not sure if the different memory foam will totally solve that problem. 

My experience is that 3" of mem-cool  probably would not be supportive enough either, but everyone is different.  If you really want to try, I would suggest 1" and then (if you have a large bed) you might be able to fold in half to see what 2" is like. 

Also, the softer and more you sink in, the warmer it will be, because your skin has less area to breath.  Kind of like wearing long sleeves vs. short-sleeves.  That may be one of your issues.

So, I am inclined to add wool first.  You might consider the 1.5" wool topper from walmart.com as well. 

Also , what are you using for sheets, blankets, etc.  I use low thread count egyptian cotton sheets, and cotton blankets (unless fairly cold).   That has helped me as well.

These all are just my opinions.  Maybe someone cares to add some advice?

 

 

Thanks again Sandman, I realize these are just your opinions but it's all very helpful.

I just got a reply from the Therapedic and apparently the 3" MF I've been using is only 2.5 lbs!  I found this surprising, but I have nothing to compare it to.  Assuming this is correct, I think the 4 lb mem-cool would probably be supportive enough.  As I use the current topper more, I appreciate its comfort but am realizing it's not quite supportive enough, but it doesn't seem like it needs to be drastically more supportive.  So I think I'll start by trying 2" mem-cool. 

In terms of the cover, I actually don't know what the 16 oz refers to - I assumed it was per square yard but it doens't explicitly state that, so who knows?  So I think I will try a wool topper.  I'm leaning toward the Costco one, but I am a bit concerned that the fact that it's waterproof means it will be hotter.  Any thoughts on this?

adamjs wrote:

2.5lbs is pretty low.  However, support is also a function of how it is made.  I believe the more open breathable ones provide less suppport than the more traditional types.  At least that has been my experience.  I have an older piece of 3.6lb density that seemed more supportive than the 5lb (breathable) Aerus.

Most seem to agree that lower density does not last as long.  So, yours may be okay for support now, but might lose in a few years.

I am not crazy about the waterproof aspect, but not sure if make a noticable difference.  All else equal, I would get one that was not waterproof.  You can also buy washable (non waterproof) Natura ones.

 

"Most seem to agree that lower density does not last as long.  So, yours may be okay for support now, but might lose in a few years."

Or a few months in many cases at densities this low.

I am still a big believer that "support" in a real sense does not come from the memory foam layers no matter what type of memory foam is in the layer. This is why there are no pure memory foam mattresses on the market (to my knowledge). Having said that, I believe the denser memory foams will create a "sense of greater support" since they will often (depending on brand and specs) have a "firmer" feel feel to them when they are "unmelted" by body heat and pressure. You would tend to not sink in as far in a denser memory foam layer (again this would depend on brand) and this I believe can "translate" into a sense of greater support depending on the layers underneath. I believe that true support (the ability to keep your spine aligned through some form of pushback) comes from the layers under the memory foam. Someone would need to be really lucky to get correct support from a memory foam layer (correct spinal alignment at the depth the memory foam allows you to sink in) and even then it would probably only be correct in a particular sleeping position and for a limited time as each different position (or the length of time spent in one position) would change the characteristics of the memory foam (different heat/pressure distribution for each position or length of time).

The top layers of memory foam are more about comfort and pressure distribution and how easily they allow you to sink in/through to the supportive layers underneath. In other words, I believe that firmer memory foam comfort layers do not offer greater support but they do offer a firmer "feel" by not allowing a sleeper to sink in quite as far.

The thinner the memory foam layer and the closer to your body it is, the more easily you would go through it (again depending on brand and density) and the greater the influence of the layers underneath on the perceived feel of the memory foam itself.

Phoenix

Yes, it may last less than a few years.  I am not sure what the breakdown rate is in memory foam vs. PU foam.  I think more gradual, sinces it already starts soft, but not sure.

I would say that memory foam provides some support, but not a lot.  No support to me would mean that you would sink in the full amount of the thickness of the foam.  I am fairly confident that is not the case.  I am pretty sure that if you slept on a 10" piece of memory foam, the maximum compression would not be 9.999".  Therefore, it is providing some level of support. 

 

However, it is possible that in some memory foams, when warmed up, you might sink in 80% or more in the heaviest areas.  It would be interesting to have a measure of how far you sink it sinks in at a higher temperature and after a certain amount of time.  A firm piece of latex would sink in considerably less than the 80%.

I also think there is some difference in the amount of support in different memory foams.  Although I have no way to measure it, I don't think I would sink in as far on a 3" piece of 5lb Senus as I would in a 3" piece of 5lb. Aerus.

I think that we are using the term "support" in different ways. Memory foam does compress and is not completely "viscous" so in the sense that it will stop compressing before you go through the layer yes it does provide support. However I have been using "support" in the sense of it's ability to "push back" and change in "real time" to provide correct "spinal alignment" in different positions as opposed to "pressure relief". In this meaning of support (resilience), memory foam is a very poor material and is not supportive in nature ... no matter what it's density or composition. In the way that you are using it, there are more and less supportive memory foams however in the way that I mean it, no memory foam can be supportive to the degree that is necessary in an overall mattress construction. I believe that it would be helpful to alleviate the misunderstanding surrounding memory foam to call it "firmer or softer" which is a measure of how far you can sink in as opposed to "more or less supportive". This is why it always needs a supportive (more resilient) underlying layer. Stopping the "sinking in" process and "support" for me mean different things and while I realize that this may not be an issue with some, I believe that this confusion is part of the reason for the misunderstanding and misinformation about memory foam in general .

I posted some of my thoughts/beliefs about this in a new thread.

Phoenix

Thanks for chiming in Phoenix, and thanks as always Sandman.  Your recent posts raise a question for me.  I had pretty much decided to exchange my current MF for either 2" mem-cool or 2.5" 5lb Aerus.  The two objectives I'm trying to solve are 1) comfort, and 2) alignment (in that I suspect the firmness of my mattress doesn't allow my hips and shoulders to sink enough as I sleep on my side).  After reading the last posts, I'm wondering if 2) will actually be solved by MF.  I guess the question is, will I have the right sinking "pattern" with MF - ie, will my shoulders and hips sink the right amount, relative to my torso, legs, head, etc.?  If MF isn't truly supportive, then that seems to imply that I won't. 
   

adamjs wrote:

I wouldn't get too hung up and say one thing provides support and something else doesn't.   It is a relative thing, and let's just agree that memory foam in low on the support scale.  However, for comfort and proper alignment, you do need your hips and shoulders to sink in more than the rest of your body (for most side sleepers at least).   So, some foam with low support can actually work.  In your own case, you seem to prefer and have less back problems with the memory foam than without it (if I have read your posts correctly).   Plenty of people are happy with Tempurpedic mattresses and memory foam toppers.

So, the real key is to find the right level of support and comfort.  Some do that will all latex, some do that with just memory foam, some do it with a combination (my case), some do it with other methods.   Ultimately, each one of us will have a different preference.

That is part is why I advocate use small increments of memory foam and latex, to be able to fine tune, and to be able find out what works for you.  Unfortunately there is no way around the trial and error.   Some people are lucky on their first try.  Some are very tolerant of almost any combination. 

I also advocate wool filled toppers and/or mattress pad to help with overheating.  That helps for many people, but there is no gurarantee it will work for you.

 

 

A couple of ideas ... personal opinions of course ... that I think are important.

First of all, the top (roughly) 3" of a mattress are more about comfort than support no matter what the material. The layers below this are what provide the support. I personally believe that this understanding is truly important. There is some variance here of course, since where comfort ends and where support begins depends on sleeping position, body weight and distribution, and other factors, so the layers immediately below or above the  3" boundary may play a kind of dual or transitional role, but in general terms I believe it is important to know where comfort comes from and where support comes from so you don't end up trying to fix the "wrong" problem.

In your case, your "baseline" mattress already has I would guess at least 2" and more likely 3 or more inches of "soft poly" on the top (based on most of the simmons luxury firm mattresses). The "luxury firm" rating they give it is from the innerspring and not because there are firm layers on the top of your mattress. As a matter of fact some luxury firm mattresses have even softer poly on the top so you will "go through" more easily to the "firm feeling" innerspring. If you add too many more layers to this mattress, then the soft poly which was "intended" to provide comfort will instead become more responsible for supporting you and less responsible for relieving your pressure issues and the role of the innerspring which is intended to support would be diminished. This creates a bit of a "quandry" since it is very difficult to "firm up" soft support layers.

For this reason, your best solution may be to avoid memory foam altogether and stick with materials like latex or even very high quality "latex like" polyfoam like energia or similar that are inherently both supportive in nature (have good resilience) and that also have enough softness to relieve pressure. In effect you would be trying to to create a situation that more of your support came from higher up in the mattress since there is no way it will come from the soft poly. Adding memory foam to this mattress would result in soft less resilient layers (any memory foam) on top of soft less resilient layers (soft polyfoam which actually in spite of its softness would have more "pushback" or resilience than most memory foam) and you would probably end up with a really really soft and non supportive mattress. While this (adding a foam on top with a higher resilience) is not ideal as it would not be really deep enough to provide deep support, it at least would move you in the "right" direction, allow the innersprings to do more of their job, and may be the best you can do. In your situation I really doubt that any memory foam will provide enough resilience .... even if it was "colder" because something was over it ... to contribute to support. You can see from this video (and your own experience of course) and that even relatively cold Aerus has quite a long memory which translates into very low resilience.

A wool topper could also contribute to firmness and "bring up" the firmness in your mattress. Of course with too firm a layer on top ... even if this was a compressed wool topper ... you could end up having pressure issues although this is less likely unless you were more "sensitive". I think that any small things you can do to "firm up" or "move up" the support layers would offset the risk you would be taking in making the top too firm as long as you don't do anything too extreme (like putting wood on top of your mattress and sleeping on it) and would be steps in the right direction.

It may be worth trying an inch of latex (since you would likely need that anyway) as I mentioned earlier just to see if it moves you in the right direction but I would try it first over the polyfoam with a mattress pad over the topper (either the one you have or a wool one) before I considered trying the latex over memory foam. Latex over memory foam would really be going against the odds in your case but it would still be worth a try just because you have it and for the experience on the slim chance that it may work for you. An inch of latex over the poly over springs would still be "in the range" of proportional mattress construction and may just be enough to bring you into the lower end of your "comfort" range while still being able to use the innersprings for support. If it doesn't, at least you will be in a much better position to predict more accurately what you would need to do next.

Phoenix

Going back to your first post and in the hope that it's not too late or costs you too much, you may even be better off exchanging your mattress either for one that is more suitable by itself or one that you could use as a better "foundation" to build on. It would be helpful if they listed exactly what is in the mattress you have now.

Added:

I can't seem to find an 11" simmons with an 800 coil count, some latex, some poly, and luxury firm. It is probable that the latex is about .75 - 1 inch and if it is on top of the innersprings and there are only about 2 more inches of poly in addition over this (assuming the innersprings are 7.75" or so) then you may be in slightly better shape (not great shape) than I thought depending on what they are calling "latex". If you could find out from them exactly what is in it it may help.

How long do you have before your comfort exchange period is over?

Phoenix