what are the heaviest duty guage, highest quality springs you've found in any conventional mattress you were willing to slice up? 

Of course, the lower the number the thicker the wire...I think 12 gauge is the thickest.  I am not sure if the number matters all that much for longevity, because they seem to increase the number of coils when the wire is thinner.  At least that is what I think I remember reading, could be wrong.
I note that your message was at 4 am...bad night's sleep and desperate?  I hear you.
Kait

I'd say my Englander should be a contender, with 12.5  gauge springs. (or is it 12? Heck, I forget now; it's in the top of my Englander surgery thread I think)
That's why I bought it.

However, heavier thicker stronger springs may not always be better.

I've heard it argued that 12 and 3/4 gauge is the best to sleep on. But I would argue that like types of foam it's all an individual thing and really you can only guess and try various ones and see what you like.

Generally speaking I'd guess that a lighter person might like a lighter gauge and a heavier person might like a heavier gauge; but there are surely exceptions to that as well.

"Double tempered posturized heavy-duty 12 3/4 ga. double offset 6 turn coils..." NICE. that trumps sealy's (on paper anyway). queen starting at $439, and I think that price is for the lilly, but i see you went with the Malibu?  I take it they like others have multiple names for the same mattress, or you just have to go by the number (i.e. "1180" etc.)?  hopefully i'll find some in a b&m showroom somewhere.  i just really don't want to buy a big mattress online, shipping etc.  ideally take it home myself in my truck.

thanks j.s.c.!

The cheapest Sealy's have 12.75 guage and 420 springs in the Queen.  One step up to the preferred has 14 guage and 736 springs.  Not sure which is better, but since they put more thinner ones in their top of the line, they are implying that that should be better.  How they tie the springs together will affect the firmness as well. 

 Not sure it would make a huge difference.  What you put on top is probably more important.

Why doesn't someone market an innerspring with good coils and a zipper top, so you can add/replace/customize the foam?  Seems like an obvious niche.  Maybe someone is doing it and I am not aware of it.

sandman wrote:
Sandman, I have been thinking the same thing. Got money for a startup? I don't. But they're probably aren't enough people who would buy it. And, it would cost more to send back if the people wanted a refund, than flobed's latex, I am pretty sure.

Jason, The Malibu Firm was the very firmest one at the store I went to. The Cushion Firm has an extra inch or so of padding. If you're going to do surgery on it,it really makes little or no difference what it is, they all have the same springs.
If you wanna have some fun, tell the salesman you don't care what is inside, in terms of foam, because you're just going to cut it open and replace the foam anyway. You're just buying it for the springs.

My salesman looked at me like I was completely insane when I told him that.

Actually I do have money for a startup if I thought it would be profitable, and I live in Socal as well.  Yeah, the returns would probably be a killer.  Although, every store has to deal with that issue.   However a local store where people can try in advance would help. 

I just stopped by Macy's to lay on some innerspring.  The higher spring count Sealy (780 queen?) defiinitely felt more supportive than the 730 coil count.  Same guage.  I don't think the firm had too much foam/padding. Felt pretty good.   I also like the Simmons extra firm.  I think that has 900+ pocketed coil of 13.25 guage.  Slightly firmer feel than the Sealy. The salesman could not tell me the extra amount of inches of stuff on top of the Simmons, but I may be able to research both at US Mattress.  Not sure how well the pocketed coils hold up, but for a side sleeper like me they feel a little better.  Ideally it would sleep well for a few years before any surgery.

The salesman told me that they have to recycle returned mattresses. 

what makes them so expensive?

sandman wrote:
I think Simmons individual coils are a great idea, and often they seem to feel good, at least at first. However, from having had one, and having read many reviews of others who have had them, it seems that a) they break down very quickly, much like cheap foam; and b) they tend to get knocked off their base position and drift in such a way as to cause irregular placement of the springs, thus causing lack of support and pain. I would never buy another one unless I read independent reports of their having totally changed their manufacturing to address these issues.

I think having a store where you offered a flobeds-like interchangeable latex layers on top of a spring base could be a viable business, but it would take a lot of advertising to get the idea across ... And then there is the returns problem... I have no $ for such a business startup but I'd certainly be interested in working for / with such a company.

Jim, I have heard about the problems with the individual coils as well, so I am thinking about Sealy as the starting point.  Their cheapest (queen) have 420 12.75 gauge springs and their expensive ones have 782 14 guage.  I tried both, and the 782 seemed more supportive.  I am a little worried about the 14 gauge, but my understanding is that the way they connect them increases the effective firmness level.  Any thoughts?  I know you bought an Englander, but I am not even sure where they sell those.  I could not tell from their website, but will check again.

Right now I have latex, which does not cause any pain issues for me, but I do find it hot.  I am leaning towards trying an innerspring on the theory that it can disperse the heat better through the largerly air filled spring section.   I also think the mattress cover is important to the heat factor.  Do you know what they put in the better ones to help minimize heat?

As far as a customizable innerspring business, I think it would be interesting.  I assume one would have to partner with a major manufacturer to build the spring component and someone to make the zippered cover.  The various types of foam could probably be bought on a wholesale basis.  I would see it more as a retail store initially, as opposed to over the internet, due to shipping issues.  I guess shipping could eventually be worked out if it catches on. 

Jim...... Sandman: Leggett and Platt have been in the box spring, steel spring, business for 125 years and are the principal supplier of springs to most mattress manufacturers. Go here to their own website and read all about it.

http://www.beddingcomponents.com/

Good luck with your proposed venture.

sandman wrote:

Sorry, can't help you with the mattress cover question. I always cut those off and throw them away. I just don't like the feel of the "tufted buttons" type mattress top.
Also I am not much help with the springs. I really don't know springs that well. I went with the Englander based on a good experience I had sleeping on one at a hotel. I think they're good but I can't really say for sure. I think your guess is as good as mine. If that mattress sales guy is around maybe he could answer... forgot his handle at the moment...

Unfortunately I think springs are largely the same as foam: you have to just try them and see if you like them. But that is an expensive proposition, I know. But I really don't have much experience with springs. I did have a Sealy that I did surgery on (got it at CostCo) and it seemed to me the springs wore out after 5 years or so, so I threw it away. My wife is still sleeping on hers and they seem okay for her. Not sure if mine really wore out or not. But that's why I bought the Englander and I like the idea that they are 12.5 guage.

The way I found Englander - and the best price on one - was just by calling around to mattress stores via the yellow pages. "Do you sell Englander?" Yes. "How much for a Twin Malibu Firm?" If one guy asked for more $ than the previous, I allowed him to beat the previous quote.