I was reading about FBM latex toppers that have irregular spaced holes.  Then when I received my latex from Overstock some of mine had irregular holes.   Then I saw a picture of foamsource (I think) and it showed some irregular spaced holes. How can that be if they use a waffle maker type machine that has the holes spaced properly?  Just curious, wondering how that happens.  I don't think it makes a difference on comfort, but wondered anyway.  Could it be Dunlop only does that because they process it differently?  I don't believe Talalay process does irregular holes form what I have seen.

not all moulds have the spacing of the pin's in the same array, I have seen many cores from some companies latex that the holes do not go all the way through. I don't think its process specific, I have seen some dunlop cores like from latex green that the holes are uniform and all the way through, and others like Green Sleeps own rubber that sometimes does not go all the way through, both natural dunlop latex.

Hey Leo3!

Is that the 2 inch latex? How do you like it? Tell me more. Can you send a pic? What are you doing with "some of them"? Are you putting a bunch together? I'm curious. I saw a "finished" topper in a mattress store and it was $400 for a queen but not more than 2 inchs thick. I put it on a bed and lied on it, I wasn't impressed but two of them, that might make a difference. Do you cover these? Do you feel they are "worth" it and not just a cheap price? I ordered a 1 inch and it really does nothing but I put it under a mattress pad which I have been told is a mistake?!?

Leo3 wrote:
In my experience it does make a difference.  To me it seems like the firmness varies from area to area with the irregularities.

Then I am not crazy to feel lumps in my Costco latex mattress......my mother always said you get what you pay for! I am looking at the best coil futon mattress with latex 2 inch toppers from Overstock, starting with one and adding another as need be. I think a cotton cover over my mattress is just fine by me. I don't need fancy silk or wool coverings. This is middle of the road for me and so far it's worked, I might as well stick with it. A futon mattress is now warrented for 10-15 years.......

Leo3 wrote:
Somewhere here there's a whole thread on Overstock.com latex. I read here that it varies widely - some are okay and some have big holes - I mean gaps - in them. I would not really want latex that has irregular holes. I think the holes do provide a certain consistency of support (That is the latex in between the holes does! ) and if they are irregular then the latex is not going to feel consistent.

Am I wrong on this, Budgy? Wouldn't irregular holes be considered a manufacturing defect of sorts?

Back to overstock.com latex: Some said they got Inernational Latex labels that showed the ILD and some were soft and some were medium. Others had no designation. Sounds like they must all be from some giant "graveyard" for returned latex or something... I'll pass.

If laughter is the best medicine then this is it cause I am laughing my ass off. At this point I am so confused I give up. My Costco mattress does have lumps in it and Overstock is as good as anyone else. Way cheaper too!

jimsocal:  Maybe I wasn't quite understanding what you guys mean by irregular spacing? 

I could possibly take some photos, I have some 2 and 4 inch layers of natural dunlop that have an "a" side and a "b" side.  They don't always come like this, but basically this manufacturer has pins on each side of their moulds because they make their latex 8" thick all the time, most manufacturers don't make any single pieces thicker than 6".  Because the pins are on each side of the mould they are staggered so they do not make contact, and in the middle 1/2" of the mould they go down to the same depth so on the odd piece of rubber you get a small layer with a lot of "extra" holes on one side that are sometimes just a 1/4" thick.  Sometimes this would happen in the middle of a piece and not be visible but if you try to put your finger through the rubber core you can feel that the holes only go half way through.   In either case it's definitely not a defect, its actually so small of a difference that you can't even feel any difference in the firmness with your hands (and since we have a lot more nerve endings in our hands its easier to tell than laying on it sometimes). 

Is this somewhat describing what you mean by irregular spacing, or are you talking about something really wonky and unintentional looking?

I will have to reread your last posting to understand how these irregular holes happen.  But there are pictures at this forum regarding FBM (Foam by mail) that someone took that show the irregular spaced holes.  Mine has those ocassionally, but not as bad.  The Talalay piece is consistent hole spacing.  The gaping holes he was (Jim) referring to is a 2"x6" hole I had, but it was because the mold (my opinion looking at it) was not filled up (like some of my homemade waffles look like).  I don't have any pictures (other than the talalay picture that I had with the flaw and now deleted) of mine, other than video (because I am documenting my zoning layers and the changes I make).

Yes I would like to see those pictures you have to see if we are talking about irregular spaced holes.  Foam by Mail pictures here had burn marks (black marks at the hole site) my latex from O-stock is clean.  Some of my latex doesn't go all the way through (holes) either.  Guess next time I tear the bed apart I will have to dig up my regular camera.  Anyway some of the holes are very close to each other, then some are not on the same row, and it seems really weird that a mold would do that.

ill try and take pictures soon, I don't know if I can properly describe it.

I reread your description of how the irregular spaced holes occur.  See if I understand correctly, one side of the mold is different spaced from the other side of the mold.  For some reason they don't want the teeth to meet like your teeth (persons) do.  But the talalay piece the hole goes from the one side to the other clear through.  Is it just certain molds or manufacturers?  I will see if I can find the FBM picture, I tried earlier but no luck yet.

Hopefully you can take pics I would like to see Dunlop pics anyway.  Mine (some of them) have a shiny side and the other side is dull.

Thanks for all your info and help.

i think most manufacturers use moulds where the holes go all the way through, I know LI and Latex Green seem too.  But yes....I think you are picturing what I am describing, I could also say that the actual lengths of the pins themselves are all different too.

imagine on the top and bottom you have a bunch of pyramid shaped pin arrangements that are all staggered so the top and bottom pins never touch.  As to exactly why they do this....I got no idea lol, maybe they think it looks better.

As I understand it the pins heat the latex up and maybe that is why they don't want them to touch from the top side to the bottom side.  I have watched the LI videos showing the process that explains the process (also it is on Youtube).  Don't the pins make the consistency of the latex (ILD) they are making too?

thats a common misconception.  a lot of sales reps have tried to previously explain to me that the larger the holes are the softer the latex or the lower the ILD will be.   by far the firmest latex foam I have seen and carry has LOTS of holes and they are also larger than most.  The vacuum sealing of the moulds and how much rubber is put into the mould play the largest role in determining firmness from one batch to another, the size of the pins of course will also play a role, but there are many ways you can influence ILD. 

I see what you mean.  I got samples of 28 ILD and 32 ILD of Talalay Blend, and the 32 ILD had larger holes.  I thought that was very odd.  But on the other hand I have a LI zoned pillow that has larger holes in the middle and smaller on the edges (if I remember correctly).  Then I have another latex pillow with larger holes and it is rated as softer, and is.  I think it is as you said many variables.

Isn't it basically ran by machines (computers) and the molds should have the exact amount of liquid (rubber blend or whatever) so there wouldn't be flaws like the 2"x6" holes I had from not filling it fully?  I can see when they take it out of the mold it could rip or stay on the mold, but I could see it just plain didn't get completely filled up (the mold).

Very complex process like the natural talalay they rate average 24-28 as medium (as the Foam Sweet Foam topper poster ordered).  Not sure why they can't make it more precise on the naturals like they do the blended.  So many variables and so many ways to try to comprehend this latex.

Still trying to wrap my head around why they place the pins in odd arrangements for some latex.  I am thinking they do this for the natural latex or dunlop latex.  From what I have seen the blended talalay has perfect holes from one side to the other.

for a zoned topper the amount of void area is how they essentially make it softer or firm in one area of the same sheet of rubber.  how they make these is the same as any other sheet of latex but it would be cut afterwards in whatever pattern they want to use.  Personally I have always thought "zoned"  toppers and zoned coil systems is about the biggest gimmick around, but thats another topic for another thread lol.  Basically how they make soft, medium or firm rubber is almost really trial and error, if their mould is a 6" depth they will always make the rubber in 6" depths and then cut it afterwards, so they will be making 6" cores in all sorts of ILD's, which is essentially determined primarily by the amount of liquid that goes into the mould before it is vacuum sealed.  The vacuum 'pushes' the liquid to fill the whole mould because of pressure differences, so less liquid will be a lower density, lower ILD end product. 

Part of the reason you will see such a large ILD difference with some manufacturers in their natural rubber is that because the natural Talalay is processed in the US by Latex International and the rubber is sourced from North Africa, this stuff sits around for a while, the waiting time before processing will effect how much ammonia needs to be used to stabilize the mixture and ultimately how much vulcanizing agents need to be added to the product, and no matter how well you wash latex afterwards some of this is left in the product, it changes the consistency and ultimately will effect the ILD ratings even though they fill the mould the exact same amount each time.  There will be slight variances in the synthetic blend as well but not as noticeable because there is less natural polymer content.  If natural latex is processed very soon after harvesting these consistency issues are far less glaring. 

Leo3 wrote:
I too used to think that Dunlop had a certain "look" to the way the mold was formed, but someone told me that is not true, that sometimes Dunlop looks like Talalay.
Can you speak to this, Budgy? My guess would be that the Dunlop "process" and Talalay "process" could be done on various molds that may not look the same from one manufacturer to another, even though the process would be the same. True? (And I'm just guessing because I've only ever seen one piece of latex that I know was Dunlop.)

the 'shiny' and smooth bits are really just from where the rubber would have been in direct contact with the mould, making all the cell walls at that point very uniform.  the 'dull' rough bits are really just from where it has been cut.  I think it would be pretty hard to tell for sure whether you are looking at dunlop or talalay latex by looking. and yeah there are definitely different pin arrangements being used sometimes even in the same factory for the same process. 

Ok, here are a bunch of different photos.  These are also pictures of the 3 slabs I weighed in the other thread. The first one here is a 2" piece of firm natural Dunlop it is symettrical on the reverse side.



This next photo is of a 4" thick medium piece:



This next photo is the exact same piece of rubber but on the reverse side. 



Finally we got a our 2" soft piece Side A:



and side B of the same piece, note you can clearly see in this image that the holes do not go all the way through. (same thing with the 4 inch piece but cant really see it in the photo)

Why do the photos all have a piece of gauze over them? It is hard to really tell much do to the gauze.

they do it for a few reasons. 

#1, is actually something you have noticed with your own customizable latex mattress, latex tends to cling to itself , and this is not a good thing because it interferes with the rubber cores flexing freely inside the mattress, this ensures a low friction surface between the pieces and proper movement of the cores. 

#2, related to the first reason is to protect the rubber cores from being damaged by friction over time.

#3, because the oils in our skin can damage latex over time if it is handled frequently, this provides some minimal protection from this.

What company is actually doing this? I have never see this or heard about this before.

All of my latex toppers from O-stock had angelhair or gauze covering.  Otherwise I don't think you could have packaged it in the plastic bag.  I believe they have to use a machine to fold and roll it and insert in the bag.  That is why I don't believe a human being repackaged and returned.  Anyway I took the gauge off I want it to stick to the mattress and not move around.

I can see the spacing of the holes being closer, but they aren't as irregular as some of mine.  Some day I will have to take pictures.  I will have to rearrange again soon.  I have it too soft now and I have it 5 1/2" thick over a spring mattress.

eagle2 wrote:
in this case the company that makes these cores (they do not source them from anyone else) is GreenSleep.  this is actually the worlds most expensive all latex mattress.