I got my foam today. Haven't tried laying on it yet.

Took some photos which I will post tomorrow probably in this thread.

Not entirely thrilled with the firmness and quality of the latex. One of the pieces has a fair amount of imperfections and the other piece has a glued seam all along the vertical length of the twin, about 2 and 1/4" in from the edge. It's a very hard seam from the glue and I think if I were to lay on it I would feel it, even under, say, a wool topper. If it were a King size I could understand the need for a glued seam, but a twin? Seems a bit sketchy to me.

Also, this following problem is not at all SleepEZ's fault, unless what they are selling as a 32ILD is nowhere near that, but I already had a piece of  3/4"-1" latex that I estimated to be about a 24ILD. So I ordered a medium Talalay 1" thinking it would be better for support. But the one I got from SleepEZ seems to be just as soft as the one I have already; so either I estimated wrong (most likely) or they sent me something on the very low end of "Medium" (listed at their site as 32). So I would not have bought that piece had I known it was going to be pretty much exactly like the piece (actually I have 2 like this) that I already have. This is the piece with the seam as well.

The Dunlop piece seems a LITTLE more firm than that and is 1.5" so it may work for me. Also it is exactly 1 and 3/4 inches thick not 1½, so that is good in my case, I think. However, I do think they should be more exact on their site about the thickness. Could be that someone really wants exactly 1½ inch, not 1 and 3/4 inch... I mean, why not describe it on the site as it is?

I'll try sleeping on the Dunlop 1 and 3/4" natural "Medium" ILD tonight and see how it feels and report back with a "first night's impression" tomorrow probably. Also I'll post the photos of the imperfections and get you guys' and girls' opinions on whether or not it is within the realm of acceptable or not considering these are not discounted prices.

And just fyi, this is the first latex I ever bought that did not come compressed. It was just rolled and covered in plastic in a big box. Maybe they only compress the bigger pieces...?

Okay, first my report on my first night's sleep:

The first night I used only the 1 and 3/4" Natural Dunlop in this configuration
1) springs (Englander 12.5 gauge)
2) 1/4" cheap memory foam to protect the foam above from the springs (this came with my original Sealy mattress)
3) super firm 1/2" HR foam
4) Dunlop
5) wool topper
Note that the above is how I had the mattress when it worked for me, 6 months or so ago, except of course for the Dunlop layer which replaced HR foam.

WAY too firm!
Also I felt that old latex feeling I had when I bought a Flobeds: "It's pushing back!"

I tossed and turned most of the night and by morning I was sore. I went over to finish my last hour or so of sleep on my wife's bed which was much better! This was worse than with the HR foam! Just too firm, period.

I'll make some sort of change tonight and see if I can make this work... Suggestions as to what to add on top of it are welcome.

Maybe my soft Talalay on top, maybe even a very thin layer of memory foam on top of that (even though I had decided not to use memory foam any more; but in the case of this very firm-feeling Dunlop (Medium, they say but man it feels FIRM to me!) it needs SOMETHING SOFT on top.

Okay, so I'll report back after I try something new tonight...

Now, on to the subject of these 2 latex layers with photos:

First the natural Talalay seam. This seam is 2" from the edge. While I suppose it will not affect the sleeping, I still feel kind of ripped off to get a piece that is so far from perfect. It's not even a good seam, because:
a) it seems they used too much glue or whatever because the glued seam is very hard; that is you can very much feel it. Granted it is nearly impossible to sleep that close to the edge but still... this seems more like a "second" to me, not a new piece. Note that the holes are not even spaced the same on the piece they glued on, and that the big piece is smooth while the strip they glued on is a rough texture. What's odd is that on the other side both pieces look almost exactly the same as each other, except the holes are a tiny big bigger on the big piece. (?!) In other words, one side is completely different than the other side in terms of smoothness and hole spacing. (Huh?)


Now, moving on to the natural Dunlop. The following pictures show most - not all - of the imperfections:








I would be curious to hear from Budgy who sells Latex as to whether or not he would sell this latex or accept it, and from others who have bought latex whether or not they would send it back based on these imperfections. While I got them at a "good price" it was by no means a sale price. While the price at SleepEZ is very good, they gouged me on the shipping. The actual cost of shipping these was $19 but I paid $49. But of course, the initial base price did still make it the best price for 2 layers. For one layer Rockymountainmattress would have been better. But also Rockymountain does not have the 1 and 1/2" (1 and 3/4 inch in actuality) layers.

Frankly I would not buy from SleepEZ again based on their having sent me what I consider to be too-imperfect latex layers.  I might even try to send them back. I am curious as to what you all think. If you all think different maybe I will adjust my opinion. I have never bought latex except the one piece I got from a warehouse near my home, which was just an oddity they had laying around so I got it cheap. I have never bought latex other than that except when I bought a Flobeds. The Flobeds pieces I had did not have imperfections like these and there were many pieces since we bought a King.
 

Jim,

The 3 inch "medium"  latex topper I recently bought from FoamSweetFoam did NOT look like your photos.   It was snowy white, no imerfections at all and a seam (queen size) that was almost un-noticeable.   This was my only experience purchasing "exposed" latex.   I don't think I'd be happy if I were you either.     Just my opinion.

The 2" strip they glued on does not even look like the same type of latex.  That is bizarre.  I think your experience confirms that dunlop feels "firmer" than tallay for the same ILD.  You can make a case for a return, but if they end up sleeping okay who cares what they look like.  Not sure if that is what dunlop should look like.

So, you havent' tried the talalay to see how it feels?    Maybe put the talalay over the dunlop and your softer piece (or memory foam) over that.  I had a feeling that you would need more than 2" of foam.

well.. that dunlop piece does seem quite riddled with imperfections, but they all seem to be relatively small.  I think its normal to get a little bit here or there, but that is a fair bit. 

The seam on the talalay piece does seem poorly done.  I have almost completely gotten out of bonded latex pieces altogether.  All of the queen and king size pieces I deal with now are no longer split down the middle, they are solid cores.  There are some mattresses that are available to me that would use this, but in the past when I carried them they atleast used latex of the same basic structure or pattern of holes. 

I would not even consider keeping those layers.  I'd be really angry....Id make a phone call to Sleepez and return.

I am still in the process of finding a company to purchase a topper...Sleepez on was on my list...but I dont think so now.

They told me I could return if I paid for shipping...so returning is an option....right?

I asked them to send samples last week.....and I have received nothing yet.

You don't use much layers do you?  I think not even 2"?  I am not sure.  I would put something firmer over the coils if it were me.  IMHO.

My o-stock layers had about those imperfections, so does FBM.  Some layers looked better than others.  Not sure but I don't believe those would affect the feeling of the latex.

So are you saying the 32ILD is softer like 24ILD?  Are the both Dunlop? Is one side denser than the other side?  Which one is the natural talalay (if did get one).

"Could be that someone really wants exactly 1½ inch, not 1 and 3/4 inch... I mean, why not describe it on the site as it is?"  I agree!

I personally don't like seams, that is why I ordered twin size, because some comments said they had seams on the queen or king size.  It was hit and miss for those sizes.  Latex International toppers sold at Sleeplikeabear said they charge you more for "No seams" on the queen or kingsize.  LI makes both, different areas of the country has the molds so I don't really get the reason for this.

Smoother texture comes from contact with the face of the mold.  Let's say their mold is 6" thick.  If you slice a 6" slab in to (3) 2" toppers you will get (2) toppers with one smooth face and one rough face, and (1) topper with two rough faces.

The seam was careless and unnecessary for a twin size topper, in my opinion.

The other imperfections seem fairly common, unless you buy latex made by Latex International.

In my opinion it is worth paying for Latex International latex.  However if you want dunlop, then I'm not sure what manufacturer is best.

I have purchased 8 pieces of latex in my life.

im pretty sure that Talalay piece was made by latex international, the thing is that they are not going to do any of the bonding, that depends on who you buy it from in the end. 

Jim, 

You had every right to expect a better quality product.  You should complain to Sean (?) at Sleepez. 

If you explain to him about your posts on this site and the number of people who might have been considering Sleepez, but will now probably spend their money elsewhere, I'm sure the businessman in him will realize  that he should make you "happy" so that you will tell everyone what a great guy he is. 

As to your sleeping problem, I hope the additional talalay layer will soften up your bed enough to really solve your problem. 

Philip

Jim. I agree with Philip! Those look like blemished pieces to me, or seconds, depending on the terminology you care to use to describe latex that is not first-class. This is something that I would expect from one of the foam by mail or one of those companies to send to you.

You really need to tell Sean at SleepEZ about your reporting at "what's the best mattress.com" and that if you're not satisfied with his response to your complaint that it most assuredly is going to get posted here. The money that they will lose from your post will be far greater than anything they might lose by taking it back and giving you a credit. I believe I would check with foam sweet foam, they seem to be a first-class operation and sell individual pieces, at least that is my understanding.

I know how much you want to try out Dunlop latex as opposed to Talalay. And I don't blame you, I believe I would want to do the same thing. But my experience with Talalay has been quite enjoyable. I would not be afraid to purchase all Talalay pieces if that's what I had to do to get a first-class piece of latex.

HI Jim,

I was considering ordering from sleepez myself and have actually spoken with shawn a couple of times.  Looking at the latex you received, I would be very disappointed.  In fact I would be on the phone looking for a refund. 

Suffice it to say that I am "removing" sleepez from my list.  I would definately call and let them know of the quality (of lack thereof) you received.  I read in a few threads that foam sweet foam has a good product and fair pricing, and they are within driving distance from me so my wife and I may see them this weekend.  If we do make a purchase, I will post a follow-up to let you know of my experience. 

I was also considering savvyrest, and may still try their offerings, but their pricing seems a bit high (I assume if it is because they have a network of dealers). 

I'm not seeing the pictures . . . where are they?

KimberlyH wrote:
Kim,

Click on the "all" option at the bottom of the page to view all messages.  They are in Jims 1st reply...

Yes Kim I was just about to post the same thing.

I can understand why this site does not want to constantly show all the posts, it takes up bandwidth and scrolling time for the forum users. But nevertheless there needs to be something done to make it more obvious that all of the posts are not available without hitting the "All" button at the end of the thread. This happens time and again to many people who wish to view all of the information in a thread. There is no telling how many people have left this site without the information they were seeking because it was not available to view without hitting the, "All" button at the bottom of the thread.

This is an excellent site and one of the best on the Internet for mattress shoppers. It has been most helpful to me, and I appreciate it very much.

However!

Possibly one of the moderators will see this complaint and respond to it by mentioning it to the owners who hopefully will fix this problem.

Jim,

My LI Talalay layers do not look anything like that.  They are uniform and white and show only the most marginal of imperfections.  I would not accept this, and I'd send it back for a refund, even if you have to take a loss.  IMO, whether or not it sleeps fine, just knowing they sent you a substandard product will gnaw away at you and you won't be happy.

This really reinforces the "you get what you pay for" adage.  I'd rather pay a little more and KNOW I'm getting a quality piece of LI latex - of course, some of you are also interested in Dunlop, and I have no idea where to get good Dunlop, though I did think this site looked promising:

http://www.latexco.com/home/

Okay! Here's the deal....
Sorry I did not post yesterday, I saw that I had 11 replies in the afternoon but was busy and could not post until today.

First of all thanks to all for your opinions. It really helps to have other people to bounce ideas off of here and get feedback from others.

So it seems - based on most opinions here -  that I would not be out of line by asking for a refund on either or both of these pieces.

Although Budgy has pointed out that not all Dunlop is firmer or "deader" than an equal piece of Talalay, nevertheless this piece is exactly like the piece I tried many years ago: compared to the medium Talalay piece it is - how do I say this? - less "springy" and more "rubbery". It is denser. It is harder. Whereas the natural Talalay piece is very "spring-y" and kind of "sponge-y" (a natural type sponge), the Dunlop piece is more like a rubber door mat or one of those rubber cushions people put under their cash register station to stand on ... That's an exaggeration, but it points to the general idea of what I am trying to say...
Does any of this make sense to anyone or am I not explaining it well.

Again, as Budgy has pointed out, this is not a hard and fast rule, apparently, that Dunlop is always deader or denser. (Am I saying that right, Budgy? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, especially incorrect ones, but I am paraphrasing what I think I understood you to say; please correct me if I am wrong and I will edit it.) But in this case - with this piece of natural Dunlop from SleepEZ, the Dunlop is how I have always thought of it: less sponge-y, less spring-y and denser, a more "dead" type of rubber. I thought that would actually be good as a bottom layer against the springs but I now believe I was wrong in that belief. Perhaps a few ILD's softer it might have been okay - not sure.

NOW: To my 2nd night's sleep:
I took off the Dunlop layer. I was afraid of it!   It liked to kill me the previous night! (not saying Dunlop is bad, just that this piece in this ILD did not work at all, for me)

So I kept the rest the same except I replaced the natural Dunlop layer, so now my mattress is layered like this:
1) springs (Englander 12.5 gauge)
2) 1/4" cheap memory foam to protect the foam above from the springs (this came with my original Sealy mattress)
3) super firm 1/2" HR foam
4) new natural 1" thick Talalay layer from SleepEZ (the one with the poorly glued seam)
5) my old Talalay 3/4" thick layer that is probably a 28ILD - now that I compare it to this one which is supposed to be 32ILD. (these 2 lines in italics replaced the Dunlop)
5) wool topper

I am hesitant to be too optimistic, and am knocking on wood as I write this, but last night I slept GREAT with this configuration!

I will of course report back here tomorrow to see if I slept great again. For one thing I can't really say for sure because I got woken up by someone at our front door after about 6 or 6½ hours sleep and could not get back to sleep. And often it is those last 2 hours of sleep when I start to feel the pain from a mattress. So hopefully tonight I can get a full 8 hours or more of sleep so I can really test it. But I do have to say that it felt great when I got into bed last night, it felt like just the right amount of support combined with softness, and when I woke up I had zero - I mean ZERO - pain for the first time in a month or two; more like when I first got the Englander and replaced the foam with mostly HR foam.

Which brings me to this point:
Some of you have opined that 2" or so of foam is not enough over springs.  I disagree because I have tried it with more foam on top. I tried adding another inch of - alternately - medium or firm HR foam. Every time, when I have put 3" or more of foam on top  of my springs it has not worked for me at all. (I weigh 170-185  nowadays.)

So my main point is that when my mattress was feeling great before, when I first got it and for about 2 months or 3 months thereafter, I was only using 2 and 1/2- 2 and 3/4" of foam on top. When you have good springs and quality foam, you just don't need that much foam. IMHO. The Englander in fact came with only 3" of foam or so on it. (I bought the FIRM of course.) While in fact one can put more foam on when it is high quality foam, I think that when you do you are basically negating much of the purpose and benefits of the springs. This is my theory, anyway. If anyone disagrees from having tried it and prefers more foam on top of springs, you should respond here so others know that it can work for some people. But for me, no, more foam is not better. My theory is that one should start out with about 2" of high quality foam on top of the springs and then add more in 3/4-1" layers as necessary.
IF last night's new configuration does work (and I think it's going to)(knocking on wood again! ), then that will prove my point, at least for me and my needs. To me, once I get over 3" of foam it begins to feel more like an all-foam mattress and not like a spring mattress, and that is a feeling I personally do not like. For some of you who do like the feeling of all-foam then I would say " go with an all foam bed and don't mess with springs at all". But for those of us who feel the need for springs under us - and believe me I thought springs were NOT necessary and resisted the idea for like 3-4 years until my wife finally convinced me to buy springs - I think "less is more". I know a couple other people here have foam on top of springs but I don't remember how much foam you are using on top...(?)

I am still investigating how all this feels of course and I reserve the right to change my mind in a day or two or a month ... but from all my experience with HR foam, memory foam, latex, springs, no-springs, etc. all of the above kind of fits within my view and philosophy of mattresses.

As to returning the foam, I will try to note more tonight whether or not the Talalay seam bothers me or not. If it does not then I will live with it just to save myself from having to package it and return it and from having to deal with SleepEZ about a return I know they will not want to make. But if I DO feel it then I will tell them I want to return it. So far, last night, I did not feel it. If I were sleeping right on it I might feel it but with another 3/4" layer on top of it and my wool topper and sheets, I did not notice it and doubt that I will.

But the Dunlop piece really does look like a "second" to me. Had I bought it from Overstock.com for 2/3 the price and $5 shipping it would be different. But paying full price and $49 shipping I think it is not really something I want to pay for. I'd feel a bit ripped off. So I will probably end up having to deal with SleepEZ on that return anyway.

I do feel very happy though that the Talalay layer seems to be the "answer" to my mattress problem! If I get another good night's sleep for a full 8 hours tonight, I will be thrilled!

Well good luck with tonight's sleep :)

Congratulations Jim, hopefully it will continue to work for you!   So, it looks like you have 2.5" of foam plus the wool topper over springs.  That is good information for people to know.  It sounds like most of your foam is medium to medium/soft. 

It seems like most people configure the all latex mattresses with 6-9" of pretty firm base with 2-4" of soft to medium on top.  I guess springs might be somewhat equivalent to 6-9" of pretty firm latex (with a different feel of course).

Can you return the dunlop (even without any flaws)?  I think Sleepez told me that the toppers could be returned withing 30 days, but it is possible there was a misunderstanding.  I would be curious if you liked the dunlop with a softer piece (or 2) on top of it. 

don't worry about putting words in my mouth Jim. You seem to understand what I said about dunlop, it's not that it is always more solid feeling, its that 99% of the time (and in this case) it feels that way. 

Jim, If you are happy with less foam and you never sleep on your side then I can see how less is better for you.  For me I can't go less than 3", really have to have 4" or more, but then the back hurts, sides are happy though when side sleeping; but then it depends on density of foam, and also your spring mattress coils.  Mine is an oldie but goodie and I don't know what type of springs this Spring Air flippable bed has, but it was one of the firm ones.  Maybe Budgy or someone who knows more about the coils can tell us what the old Spring Air mattresses had.  I never did understand the differences, and guess I never will, LOL.  But that has to make differences for each person too.  Then the factor of men vs. women shapes, weight, age and physical ailments makes all our mattress selection/choices different.

I thought you decided the wool made your mattresses firmer, or do I have you confused with someone else.

I understand if you don't want to mess with returns, it is a hassle.  But if you are happy and don't feel the glued piece I guess keep it.  I agree about paying 2/3 less and taking a few flaws, and paying more and expecting more.  The last piece I got from O-stock (latex) didn't have any flaws, and was softer.  Then the other one had flaws, some worse than others, but acceptable for the price.  Then the factor of grab bags you may get a firm one, or a soft one.   Not ideal for some people, but for me it is giving me choices to swap pieces around.  If you don't like the Dunlop one you may want to return it, but I think you have to pay shipping back.

Your comment that the 28ILD felt like a 32 (I think that is what you said) I agree.  I have a 26ILD, and I got decent size samples from Sleeplikeabear,and the 28 and 32 felt so similar I couldn't tell the difference.  These were LI talalay.  Also, I agree about the sizes they should say what they are.  O-stock says 1 1/2 and it was.  When you talk to Sleeplikeabear they do tell you it is actually less than 1" or less than 2" I believe. 

I wish you the best in getting the mattress comfortable.  It is a constant work in progress for those of us that have aging bodies (aren't we all?) and have body aches from physical problems.

Thanks to all for the comments and good wishes.

Leo, I do sleep on my side. But there really are no "hard and fast rules" it seems in which mattress configuration will work for someone. There may be some general rules, but then it's all up to individual bodies and minds I think... I think whoever said that springs are "equivalent to about 6-9" of foam base" is about right... I think the most important layer may be that top 2-3" of foam! But of course bases do matter too...
It's all VERY complicated for those of us who cannot just "fall asleep on anything"...

I'll write more about your reply tomorrow. Gotta do some stuff before bed...

sandman wrote:
Sandman, the guy on the phone told me there are no exchanges on layers, only if you buy a mattress; this is what he told me when I first called to inquire about their shipping and returns.

I feel quite certain that I will not like the Dunlop with something soft on top, as the thickness and hardness of it will cancel the benefit of the springs in my experience. I may try it but I'm really afraid to because I don't want to have to wake up in the middle of the night and do a mattress adjustment. I'm like 90% sure I would not like it.
All I can say is that if this is a "Medium" piece of natural Dunlop, I'd hate to try to sleep on a "Firm"!

Leo3 wrote:
Leo3, yes I sleep on my side but for me, putting too much foam on top of the springs just feels like sleeping on pure foam (more or less) which is why I bought the springs in the first place: to get away from that pure foam feeling. So whenever I have tried putting 3" or more of foam on top of my springs I have not liked it. But yes, it depends on many factors - the main one being personal preference for whatever reason.

I had previously determined that whenever I used my wool topper it made my mattress too soft and I'd get back pain from it.
However I am using it again now for 2 main reasons:
1) I don't usually like the feel of pure latex. Before I had HR foam mixed in so I didn't need anything like wool on top
2) I do love the feel of that wool topper and the temperature regulation it gives me, so IF I can find a way to use it I prefer to use it

Tonight I might try sleeping without it.

As for paying shipping back for a return to SleepEZ, that would be the case if I just did not like it and negotiated a return or exchange. But in this case, since I can make the argument - and have photos to prove it - that it is a substandard piece, I think I can justify not paying shipping, especially since they already charged me $49 to ship something that cost them $19 to ship. I will make that argument... and I have a feeling it will turn into an argument. But a) the piece is thicker than they advertised and I really did want it thinner; b) it has more flaws than it really should have for a new piece; and c) it is much firmer than the other "medium" piece leading me to believe their labeling of it as a "medium" may be mistaken or at least not conducive to customer selection of the right firmness.

I wrote them an email and sent the same photos above to SleepEZ and asked for a full refund on the Dunlop piece including they pay shipping back to them on what is essentially a defective item. I said that the alternative is that I ship both back to them and refuse the entire order with the credit card company.

3rd night report:

Well, it was not a fair test so I'll report it but take it with a grain of salt.

I had to clean up our bathtub/shower yesterday because they are coming in to work on the sealing around it. It was embarassingly dirty/gunky so I spent about 2 hours of bending and reaching and scrubbing and so on, to get it clean.

As a result my back got quite a work out and was too stressed to be able to sleep well, I think.

I kept the exact same figuration as the night before (above).

So it felt good when I got into bed, but after about 6 or 7 hours my back began to hurt. It did not hurt a LOT like when I slept on the Dunlop or - worse - when I slept on the old HR foam.

Also, once I did wake up to use the bathroom (at about the 6th hour) I had trouble getting back to sleep - partly because the mattress felt uncomfortable but also because I had things on my mind. So I got up right at about 7 hours into my sleep, after laying there for awhile "trying" to sleep.

I'll try the same configuration tonight just to see how it goes.

Jim,
Yes, what work you did yesterday hurt your back bad, plus the stress of dealing of latex that you are not happy with affects your sleeping.

I hope Sleepeze respond and take care of you.  Sleeplikeabear was good to deal with, no I didn't order anything, but if I wanted talalay latex I would order from them.  Their website says they will order natural latex for you, they only stock blended latex.  Medium dunlop shouldn't feel like a rock I wouldn't think.  But one of my latex pieces from O-stock feels like a rock, I believe it is natural latex; but since I have not seen anything else but Talalay for sure I know the other pieces are not talalay, they are either natural latex, or dunlop.  Someone at the o-stock reviews thought it was from Latex Green, I don't know why they thought that.

Anyway, you know it takes a few days to recover from doing back breaking work, so don't make any changes on the bed!  I did that once forgetting I did back breaking work, and changed my bed.  It was 88% good before, then I changed it and I am still changing it.  UGH!

Right Leo. I have gone through that changing the bed thing when it was really only my back that was the problem, not the bed.
Sometimes it's hard to tell...

But unless the bed is KILLING me I generally do try to put up with it for a couple nights before I start making any major changes. Sometimes if I'm really hurting though,  I'll make a minor change like adding or changing the very top layer, though, just in hopes of having a slightly better night... but I try to keep notes on any changes so if I find things not getting better I can go back to the last configuration that felt better...

This time I'm letting it ride...
Don't expect to hear from sleepez until Monday. I wrote them an email, sent photos, told them what I wanted to do, so we'll see. I have my guess how this is going to go but hopefully it will go well... Sure wish flobeds sold layers! I know with them it would be easy... But we'll see how sleepez resonds...

I strained my back cleaning the bathroom a couple days ago so I cannot expect a perfect night of sleep. The night before last was okay but not great.

4th night report:

I left the mattress in the same configuration as the previous night, and I had a very good night. of sleep last night! I slept a pretty solid 8 hours, and then layed in bed for about another hour listening to the radio with my wife. So after that extra hour of laying down, my back did feel a little bit stiff and a tiny bit sore. But had  I gotten up after having slept for 8 hours, it would've been fine.

I am going to leave it for now... I am very tempted to try tweaking it just a LITTLE to add just a little more comfort with only a 1/2" of memory foam (I know; it's crazy; memory foam never works for me!) ... but I will leave it alone at least for tonight, maybe for a while... I'll try to keep it basically the same for at least a month.

So all in all I am very happy with the FEEL of the Talalay I got from SleepEZ. Not happy at all with the quality of it, having a lot of flaws and all... In fact were it not that I were afraid of not finding another piece with this exact same feel, I would return the Talalay as well, just based on that ugly and poorly done seam down the vertical side.

As to the Dunlop I am going to either return it or sell it. I find it hard to believe it is a Medium. It feels like at least a Firm and perhaps a VERY Firm to me; whereas the Talalay feels closer to a Soft than a Medium. In other words, I think it is misleading to call these both "Medium". I'm not saying they are intentionally misleading anyone, but I think it is just misleading. I would call the Dunlop a Firm and call the Talalay a somewhat soft medium. If I were them I would at least warn people that the Dunlop is much firmer feeling than the Talalay. I figured that to be true, but not to this extent.

However, I owe thanks to whoever it was who said that it just might be that the HR foam I had, was the culprit in my mattress suddenly "not working" for me. This latex replacement seems to have solved the problem, and while there may be some tweaking to do - or not - this is at least in the right vicinity of where I want to be. Good news.

The ILD is 32 right?  On another post I mentioned the samples I got from Sleeplikeabear 32 felt just like my 26.  Yes this was talalay blend, not natural like yours, but I think that 26 to 32 just isn't enough change IMHO.

As for the Dunlop I have no clue why it is so firm for medium.

You sound exactly, I mean exactly like me with my memory foam piece I keep slapping back on the bed for a while, then I take it off for a while, then repeat, and repeat......  Looking for that 100% instead of that 88% comfort I guess, LOL.

Keep us posted.

Leo3 wrote:
The Medium latex is posted on the SleepEZ site as being 30-32 ILD but when I ordered it he seemed very careful to refer to it as "MEDIUM", not as "30-32 ILD". Not sure if that means anything. The piece actually has a MEDIUM sticker on it but I don't know if it's their sticker or from the factory. They have their "FIRM" latex designated as 38-40 and I swear, to me, this feels more like a 38 than a 30-32! I have owned a flobeds before so know something about latex. Maybe I am wrong in this case, but if I am, all I can say is that their 30-32 Dunlop natural feels more like a Talalay 36-38.

As to trying to get that 100% comfort: Yes! Because I have felt it! I have had it on my friend's guest mattress, I have had it in a hotel... but those mattresses I have had 100% comfort on are never available to purchase! Old, or specially made... etc...

I think this current set up is very close, so you can't blame me for thinking maybe I can tweak it a little. But I'm keeping notes so if I do get "off course", I can get back to where I was! "Leaving crumbs" so to speak!

Right now I am realizing I still have a 1/2" of HR foam on the bottom layer and "I wonder what it would be like without that?"

But I'm going to stay with what I've got at least for another night or two... Stay tuned.

I am very impressed with SleepEZ and would encourage people to go ahead and buy from them, as I would also now that they have admitted they made a mistake and resolved it in a positive manner.

Anyone can make a mistake and what counts is when the President of the Company admits it and makes amends.

Shawn, the President of SleepEZ got my email today and called me right away on the phone. I had sent him photos of the pieces as are in this thread.

He said they were going to refund my $49 shipping and refund the Talalay layer which he said, "It should not have gone out like that."
He said I can keep both layers and not return either one.

Since I had decided I did not want to return the Talalay because it was the "perfect" ILD, this works fine for me. Better than fine because I don't have to go to the hassle of packaging it up, shipping it and all that!  And even though the Talalay piece was/is bad, who knows if I could find another one exactly like it, even from them - because they do vary at times... so I wanted to keep that one.

So this is a very fair resolution to my complaint and I really appreciate that they did not argue with me or question anything, they just said "You are right, it shouldn't have gone out like that, and we'll refund your shipping and the cost of the one piece." This is how a company should be run.

He did say that the Dunlop pieces do tend to have imperfections so it was not so unusual to be like that, but the other piece was a mistake and should not have been shipped and he apologized.

I'm so glad to have this resolved in such an amicable and professional manner! Good for SleepEZ!

5th NIGHT REPORT:

I slept very good again last night. By gosh, I'm almost ready to think I have found the answer!  [for me]

I slept good for a full 8 hours, did not toss and turn and woke up with ZERO back pain!

YES!

I'm going to continue my reports here for another 2 nights and if I'm still sleeping good I will stop my reports here until or unless my mattress "gives out" again.

Yesterday I had to do "back breaking" work again. I really wish I could afford to pay someone to do these things for me but someone has to do things like cleaning bathrooms, mopping floors, carrying water bottles, etc. and I can't afford to pay anyone. So I when I went to bed last night my back was SORE and hurting. I thought, "Man, I am going to toss and turn tonight and wake up sore tomorrow!" Negative thinking, yes, but my experience told me it was true.

6th NIGHT's SLEEP

I slept very well - felt no back pain during the night - and woke up with NO back pain! WOW!
This is fantastic. Better than I could have hoped for. I'm not touching my mattress configuration!

What exactly is your configuration now?

Sorry, think I just found it.  I assume it hasn't changed from below?

Funny how you are "afraid" of the dunlop.  Sounds like you have a crocodile in bed with you...

NOW: To my 2nd night's sleep:
I took off the Dunlop layer. I was afraid of it!   It liked to kill me the previous night! (not saying Dunlop is bad, just that this piece in this ILD did not work at all, for me)

So I kept the rest the same except I replaced the natural Dunlop layer, so now my mattress is layered like this:
1) springs (Englander 12.5 gauge)
2) 1/4" cheap memory foam to protect the foam above from the springs (this came with my original Sealy mattress)
3) super firm 1/2" HR foam
4) new natural 1" thick Talalay layer from SleepEZ (the one with the poorly glued seam)
5) my old Talalay 3/4" thick layer that is probably a 28ILD - now that I compare it to this one which is supposed to be 32ILD. (these 2 lines in italics replaced the Dunlop)
5) wool topper

sandman wrote: On top of my old Sealy "box springs" which is really just a wooden box with a little bit of spring to the top of it:
1) springs (Englander 12.5 gauge) (Bonnell? I think...)(impossible to get a straight answer from dealer OR from the manufacturer as to exactly what they are!)
2) 1/4" cheap memory foam to protect the foam above from the springs (this came with my original Sealy mattress) I doubt it has much if any effect on the overall feel.
3) super firm 1/2" HR foam - I think it was a 40ILD or perhaps even 42-44. (I am guessing this may soon need replacing.)
4) natural 1" thick Talalay layer from SleepEZ
5) my old Talalay 3/4" thick layer that is probably a 28ILD (now that I compare it to this one which is supposed to be 32ILD.)
6) wool topper which is a very nice one FloBeds used to sell, cost around $250 for King (In the past I have said that although I liked it I could not use it because it was non-supportive; but with THIS configuration it seems to be working perfectly.)

NO MEMORY FOAM!* (except that layer that just sinks into the springs to protect the foam above it)

I think the reason the wool bothered my back before was because the 1" (sometimes I used 2") HR foam I replaced with the Talalay above, had given out to the point it was not giving me support. So the added non-support of the wool was just too much. The straw that broke the sleeper's back!

So basically all this is very close to the same configuration I have had on my Englander all along, from the day I cut 'er open and replaced the PU foam.
It's just that - I think it is clear now that this is true - the HR foam had run its course - it was maybe 2-3 years old (supposed to be rated for 10 years! Ha!).

So in my opinion now, I think any decent springs topped by 2-3" of latex will work for most people! That's the theory I am proposing, anyway!

*I am, however, now curious to try REAL Venus memory foam, now that it is clear that Overstock.com ripped me off by telling me it was VENUS I bought when in fact it was not. I would be willing to try 1" of true Venus or any 8lb memory foam if I could get it. I am going to contact Overstock about getting a refund or at least a credit for doing false advertising on the Venus. But actually I am not planning to make ANY changes to my current mattress any time soon!

IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!!

Okay this is my last post in this thread unless someone happens to post something that warrants a response.

I just wanted to finish out a full week of updates.

7th NIGHT REPORT:

I had a very sore back last night before I went to bed. The bending over and reaching I've been doing to clean the apartment has really made my back and shoulders sore.

So I did have a little pain during the night but it obviously was caused by the work I did the previous days, not the mattress itself.

I woke up once again with none of that lower or mid-back pain that I was getting before I re-configured my mattress as above with the Talalay latex replacing the old HR foam.

So this configuration (as in my last post) is a keeper.

This teaches me a lesson:
If the mattress starts to hurt when it didn't before, one of the layers may have given out. In this case it was my 1" HR foam layer that was maybe 3 years old. I expected it to last years longer, and that's why I did not suspect it was the problem for quite a while. Someone here on the forum  suggested to me that this might be the problem and so I tried it and she was right!

So HR foam apparently does not last a long time like it's supposed to. By the way, this HR foam had not even been in the same place for a long time. That is, it was a layer that I often changed out for a different piece (different firmness) and I'm sure it got rotated and even flipped at times when I changed it, so really it had a very short life span.

I can no longer recommend HR foam unless it is for someone who just cannot afford latex and is willing to use something they know  won't last past a few years. It is however very cheap if you get it from a warehouse as I did, so the investment was minimal and I got my money's worth out of it.

Also, note that someone with no back or sleep issues might be able to use it for a longer time and not notice that it had "given out" as I did. My back is very sensitive to any lack of support so I noticed something was wrong whereas someone else might have not noticed it until a year or more later... maybe.